Timing Belt Re-Alignment

[scitzz]

Mine would whine all the time. The input shaft rests in the pilot bearing, correct? So, the flywheel never stops turning, right? The throw out bearing was buggered, thus the hard pedal. I don't think I was clear on that.

I would definitely test the accessory side first, there is a lot less involved. If all else fails, THEN I would worry about inside the bell housing.

[Occhty]

Your info sounds good.

Just a note: when the trans is in neutral with the clutch pressed in, you still have a slight bit of friction working here, the result should be the trans input shaft free-spin.
This would be increased if the pilot bearing was dragging ( going out ) causing the input shaft to spin even more so. But like stated above check the other things first. Also get a stethoscope, it should help locate that wine

[JohnGunn]

John do you have power steering? They are infamous for whining.Do you have AC?

Nitrofarm, I don't have power steering, but I do have AC. To eliminate that from consideration I took it's belt away. No difference in the noise. But, thanks, nevertheless, for your trouble.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[JohnGunn]

I would definitely test the accessory side first, there is a lot less involved. If all else fails, THEN I would worry about inside the bell housing.

I am also leaning toward the front side of the engine. I can't be absolutely sure, and, as I have proven by my screwup in reading the alignment of the timing belt, my mind is easily able to see and hear whatever it wants to see and hear, but the sound appears to be coming from the front of the engine. Thanks for the follow up.

But like stated above check the other things first. Also get a stethoscope, it should help locate that wine

Thanks for the information about what happens to the transmission input shaft when the the clutch is disengaged with the transmission in neutral.

I do have a stethoscope and have used it in looking for the source of my noise. I placed it on the alternator, the metal input pipe that is connected to the water pump, the air conditioner compressor, the part of the valve cover closest to the camshaft sprocket bearing, the oil pan, various locations on the upper timing belt cover, and even the base of the distributor. Of course there was noise everywhere, but nothing that even remotely sounded like my whine. Considering that the noise could be generated by some rhythmic disturbance of air flow that creates a whine out of air, like a flute does, I bought a three foot length of hose and tried to locate the source with that. No luck.

If nothing else. I am determined. Although I need my car in going about my life, being retired I can work around not having the use of it for a while. Since there is a possibility that the noise is related to a failure in the circulation of oil through the engine, I have decided to assume the worst and stop driving until a clearer conviction about what is going on develops.

Since we have established the fact that a timing belt can be re-aligned without removing the lower timing belt cover, the topic has shifted to something even more important to me -- the unusual noises my car makes. For that reason, I would invite all to subscribe to another thread I started which deals directly with those noises. I called it "Need Help Understanding Source of Engine Noise". Click title to go there.

There you will be able to hear a recording of another disturbing noise my engine makes. But if you listen closely you will also hear the faint beginnings of my whine, audible even at idle. Something that I couldn't hear even as we were making the recording. That thread is still open waiting for me to respond with pertinent information about the history of the car. I would welcome your input there. Of course, I'll continue to remain subscribed here and respond to whatever turns up.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[scitzz]

Did I miss something? You saying the oil isn't circulating? No oil pressure?

[JohnGunn]

Did I miss something? You saying the oil isn't circulating? No oil pressure?

I think that is a possibility, and, so, I have decided to restrict driving my car until I have dealt with that suspicion.

I plan, later today, to report what I know about the history of the car at the thread I listed earlier. When you read that I think you'll agree my suspicion and caution is warranted.

I hope you'll continue to follow my saga and keep making your good suggestions.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[JohnGunn]

I have had two different hard-to-diagnose-at-the-time whines from baby car. One was from an alternator. The bearings were going bad on the pulley. (...) One easy check is to remove the accessory belt/s one at a time (as the case may be, AC or no AC,) and see if the noise stops.

^^What he said. I would suspect the alternator, before anything else. If you remove the v-belt and the noise stops, that is your most likely solution.

Remove all ACC belts, and the noise still comes from that side? Ingenuity and logic.....and luck!

Before moving on to the other engine noise that disturbs me, I would be remiss if I failed to acknowledge scitzz and skeeters_keeper for giving me correct advice as concerns my whine.

I first removed the belt from the AC which had no effect, but I held back on removing the alternator/water pump belt. Several times I had listened to them with my mechanic's stethoscope and heard nothing even close to the whine I was looking for.

Finally, two days ago, I said, "These guys have gone to the trouble of making what they believe to be the best course of action for me to take. It borders on disrespect for me to not act on their suggestions." It was late at night, but I got up and went down and removed the belt. NO MORE WHINE.

I had been plagued with that noise every day for the past 10 months and for those few seconds I heard, for the first time, what my engine really should sound like. Nothing less than a major breakthrough.

The next question is to consider which of the changes that occur when that belt is removed is actually causing the sound. As I see it, one of three things involved must be the source.

1. The alternator.
2. The water pump.
3. The bearings at the front of the crankshaft.

I can't exclude any of these, definitively, but since my stethoscope didn't hear the noise coming from the alternator or from the input pipe to the water pump, and, because I have reason to believe the oil circulation of my engine to be compromised, (See my thread "Need Help Understanding Source of Engine Noise" where I plan to explain why I think this, later today.), I have decided, for now, to concentrate on what hides behind door number three.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[scitzz]

Well, the first thing I tried is what turned out to be the problem. I spun the alternator pulley by hand. It was hard to turn, and I could even feel that the bearings were bad. Same test should work for the water pump, but I would expect fluid leaking from the weep hole in that case.

I kind of doubt the bearings at the crankshaft, as that is what keeps turning, and cause the others to turn when the belt is on...

The alternator would cost more, but would be the easier fix of the two. Unless you can score a used one, which shouldn't be to hard.

I got a nice new shiny nickel that says it is the alternator

Edit:

You MIGHT be able to try a shorter belt, and bypass the water pump. Don't run it long like that though! I know that I popped a belt one time, and was able to purchase a lawn mower belt on the cheap that fit, and got me to the parts store. So if you measure with a string, and bought a lawn mower belt, put in on just the crank and the alternator. If you hear the whine, tada! Try spinning it first though....I don't know if a belt would thread that way?

And thanks for your kind acknowledgement!

[JohnGunn]

Well, the first thing I tried is what turned out to be the problem. I spun the alternator pulley by hand. It was hard to turn, and I could even feel that the bearings were bad. Same test should work for the water pump, but I would expect fluid leaking from the weep hole in that case.

I kind of doubt the bearings at the crankshaft, as that is what keeps turning, and cause the others to turn when the belt is on...

The alternator would cost more, but would be the easier fix of the two. Unless you can score a used one, which shouldn't be to hard.

I got a nice new shiny nickel that says it is the alternator

Edit:

You MIGHT be able to try a shorter belt, and bypass the water pump. Don't run it long like that though! I know that I popped a belt one time, and was able to purchase a lawn mower belt on the cheap that fit, and got me to the parts store. So if you measure with a string, and bought a lawn mower belt, put in on just the crank and the alternator. If you hear the whine, tada! Try spinning it first though....I don't know if a belt would thread that way?

And thanks for your kind acknowledgement!

In the process of removing the upper timing belt cover I stopped long enough to spin both the alternator and the water pump. Both seemed to turn freely, but neither had that smooth resistance you feel when a bearing are new and full of grease. I didn't, unfortunately, take the time to slow down and devote my complete concentration to the smoothness of the rotation. (At this point I remembered that I have yet to put the belts back on the car.)

Went down and turned both alternator and water pump by hand with full awareness. Neither has that absolutely free spin that indicates almost all of the grease is gone. In fact, I would guess that both had the feel of being about half full of grease. Both seemed to turn smoothly, but because of their placement in the car I couldn't put my ear close enough to hear anything. My stethoscope was of no help. (The car has only 81,000 miles on it.) Based on that experience, I'd say you might want to put my nickel in a safe place. It is definitely in jeopardy.

Here is my thinking about how the belt might be causing the whine at the front crankshaft bearing. First, I should say that I try to adjust my belts with the minimum tension that will prevent them from slipping, including when they are wet. But I suspect most mechanics might choose to push toward the other extreme to make sure the customer doesn't have to bring the car back because of a squealing belt. What does it matter to them what long-term damage that over-tightening might cause? "What damage," you ask?

I don't know if it is actually possible, but does seem to me to be most likely that if one or both of my belts, I have AC, is over-tightened enough it could force the crankshaft journal into direct contact with its bearing. If that happens, when the engine starts there will be forceful metal-to-metal contact until the oil pressure can build up to the point that it stretches the belt and pushes the journal away from the bearing. But, what happens if the oil pressure is low. Could it not eventually reach a point at which there was enough pressure to keep the metal parts separated, except where that extra force from the over-tightened belt was being applied? Then you might have metal-to-metal contact and wear and, maybe, a high pitched whine for the whole while the engine was running.

I know I'm reaching here, but until I can be assured that my oil pressure is OK, I think I should assume the worst, until I have satisfied myself that it is not happening. I have bought an oil pressure gauge from Harbor Freight and plan to install it early next week. Then I will have some real facts to churn through my mind. Must do a search on oil pump gauges. Or start a thread about them if I can't find what I need.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[scitzz]

Polishing the nickel for ya Yeah, my alternator was obviously bad.

I know the other thread sounds like the valve train isn't getting oil.

You can pull the valve cover and run the engine, see if any of the oil channels are clogged.

Loosen the oil filter some, set a pan under it, disconnect the coil wire, and bump the key a few times. No oil at all in either situation would tell you that your oil pump might be bad. Be thorough, a bad diagnosis could have you tearing apart the engine for no good reason. Blocked oil channel could starve a few valves. If no joy that way, then you could look into McParts having a loaner tool for oil pressure.

Silly question, have you made sure the oil is topped up?

Just some rambling thoughts, let me think, and lets see what others have in mind. Have you messaged Kartracer? That guy is wicked good at spotting problems, I mean WICKED!