Should Manual Transmission Oil Be Changed?

[JohnGunn]

On Friday, 09Sep, I changed transmission fluid in my Aspire. This fluid had been in the car for about one month and 640 miles. It came out looking very clean and there was much less grit in the drain plug hole after draining the fluid this time.

There was nothing that settled to the bottom of the drain pan and the magnets I placed in the pan showed hardly any signs of metal powder.

Unfortunately, looking closely at the fluid in direct sunlight, I could see hundreds of shiny particles suspended in the fluid. My guess is they are soft metal, like brass, used in synchronizers. I hate to think they could be the result of only 600 miles of easy shifting that I gave it. Hope some of them could be left over from the earlier fluid.

The shifting was not improved by this change and when I shift I have to push pretty hard to get the synchronizers to do their thing. I assume they were originally provided with a roughened surface to prevent their slipping too easily. My guess is that surface was floating in the ATF I drained out and the mating surfaces are worn pretty smooth.

I believe this fresh ATF is killing my transmission. I have only 20 miles on this new fluid, but will not drive the car until I put a different fluid in it.

Brian has suggested two fluids for use in my transmission. I'm tempted to try them both before deciding which one feels the best to me. The excellent Red Line White Paper Brian linked to impressed me so much that in case of a tie, I would go with Red Line MTL. So I think I'll start with Pennzoil "Synchromesh" before trying MTL, since at this point MTL appears to be the one I'll end up selecting. Besides, according to Brian, I should be able to get the Pennzoil "Synchromesh" fluid at WalMart and can get this process started sooner.

I also want to order one of the Dimple Magnetic Drain Plugs which may take a few days to receive, so an extra change will give me the use of my car while waiting for the plug to arrive.

I invite your comments and suggestions.

[nitrofarm]

John dont spend money on high dollar fluid.If your tranny made glitter,the damage is done.I would keep changing the atf and checking it though.Save your money for a new "used" tranny.Get one from a festy and you'll get better mpg also.

[Fordverde]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-Festiva-FTI5-5-Spd-Transmission-Rebuild-Kit-88-93-/220705842171?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item336317e3fb

rebuild it!!! or get an used one froma JY

[getnpsi]

The trans don't fail because of heat, its torque loading and shock. Put the cheap stuff in the e-trans. Sometimes old school mechanics put in gear oil into modern 5 speeds and that's a bad call.

[JohnGunn]

John dont spend money on high dollar fluid.If your tranny made glitter,the damage is done.I would keep changing the atf and checking it though.Save your money for a new "used" tranny.Get one from a festy and you'll get better mpg also.

Thanks for your continued interest and support, nitro.

To me, one of the most important factors making a car fun to drive is smooth and easy shifting. When I read your comment here, like you, I was afraid that the damage had already been done. But Brian's recommendations and the Red Line White Paper he linked to gave me enough hope to continue along my determined path.

Yesterday I replaced the ATF in my transmission with Pennsoil Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid. Not too expensive at $6.99/quart from AutoZone. I'm glad I did. The improvement was more than I could have imagined. I plan to add a report of that experience later in this thread.

[JohnGunn]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-...item336317e3fb

rebuild it!!! or get an used one froma JY

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to take my transmission apart and replace the worn synchronizers. But I can assure you they would never, ever experience the taste of ATF. That, I'm convinced, was created for automatic transmissions, and has no place in manual ones.

I replaced the ATF in my transmission with Pennsoil Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid yesterday according to Brian's suggestion, and my 5-speed has risen from its death bed.

Report to follow.

[JohnGunn]

The trans don't fail because of heat, its torque loading and shock. Put the cheap stuff in the e-trans. Sometimes old school mechanics put in gear oil into modern 5 speeds and that's a bad call.

You may be right about modern 5-speeds, getnpsi. But would you consider a transmission that must have been designed in the mid 80s modern? That is the question. If you can assure me Mazda engineers designed my 5-speed to run using ATF, I might have to take another look at this question.

In the mean time I decided to try an old school idea suggested by Brian and it worked. I plan to write about it later in this thread.

[getnpsi]

Yes i consider a japanese transmission from the 1970s and 1980s modern. When i think gear oil in the trans it's toploaders and the items used behind a late 1960's SS396 chevy engine.

Several people i know use xx-30 weight synthetic motor oil in mustang T-5 transmissions and even the 85 transaxle found in my dodge srt-4. I'm chicken for that but those examples haven't failed either.

[JohnGunn]

Yesterday, I replaced the ATF in the manual transmission of my Aspire with Pennsoil Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid. The ATF, which had only been in the car for about four days and 67 miles, seemed to be clean; no grit in the drain hole threads, no sediment in the drain pan, and no discoloration. But, as at the last change, there were some shiny bits evenly dispersed throughout the fluid when I looked at it in the full light of the sun.

That fluid had 600 miles on it and my guess is that it had about 10 times as many particles as this latest fluid after only 67 miles. I believe ATF was not protecting the synchronizers at all and even my most careful, low-speed shifting was chewing them up in direct proportion to the number of times I shifted them.

I was able to witness the death of my transmission first hand. I could see how the amount of pressure needed to force the synchronizers to work increased almost daily. and even then, the passage to the next gear was not smooth. This was not just an occasional thing happening in shifts to certain gears, but the excessive pressure was required in every shift, with the possible exception of 5th gear which required a lot of movement to get to.

This Pennsoil fluid completely changed all that. I don't know how a new stock Aspire transmission felt, so maybe I've got a long way to go to get there. But at least now I can truly say that the passage into every gear is smooth, and requires no noticeable pressure on my part.

I haven't gotten up the courage to see how fast I can make it shift. That is not really something I'm interested in at this point. I am more than content to think of my shifts as two part operations. One, out of the previous gear into neutral and another from there into the destination gear. That approach is now smooth and easy and I now don't have the feeling I am doing irreparable damage every time I shift gears. As I continue to drive the car I will certainly make discoveries of how best to use the new smoother shifting available to me. Over time I'll learn how fast I can go without forcing things and learn to stop short of that. To my mind it can only get better from here.

For Ford's plan of never having to change the fluid in these manual transmissions to work, they must have thought that there would be absolutely no wear of the synchronizers in the process of shifting. I'm sure they must have tested that and found it to be plausible. But I can assure you that they did not come to that belief while testing with ATF. That original fill would have had to be something better, much better than that.

For Ford's plan to work, the synchronizing of the gears would have to be accomplished without any metal-to-metal contact. When I was putting pressure on the synchronizers to make them shift, that pressure was necessary to get them to get them to come up to speed. At that point, there was surely little if any of the relatively thin ATF left to separate the metal parts, hence all those shiny bits.

The feeling I now have is that there is a cushion of oil between the parts and that they, nevertheless, have enough friction to bring them quickly up to sychronizing speed.

This would make a good ending to this thread, except that I promised to try Red Line's fully synthetic manual transmission fluid, MTL, before stopping. In order to do that I need to get to know my "new" transmission, and that may take a while. After I change to MTL, I'll come here to give my first impressions.

[JohnGunn]

If you think the subject of this thread important, you'll surely find the following two links interesting.

What did Mazda recommend for use in the manual transmission used in our cars?

http://www.ozmazdaclub.com/2-121-discussion/111-121-db-service-schedule.html

Information about the Mazda 121 (DA) and Mazda 121 (DB):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_121

There seems to be little doubt about whose idea it was to recommend ATF for these transmissions. Does anyone think it might have been done for the benefit of the car and its future owners?

[getnpsi]

Well ther is the 75w90 plain as day. My e trans is empty still I did fill an aspire with left over royal purple atf from my srt-4 and it did fine until i sold it. Ill get some thicker stuff when its time to roll out.

[windy1]

tranny

any manual tranny,needs to get changed,once a year,or 2 years. you re right about oil staying in suspension,if its atf. why dont u,have it flushed out,or just drain it,then use recommended oil. slick 50,sells a lubricant,for trannys,u could try. find a good manual [service] and do what it reccomends.
try not to worry. you re fine. mdoyleufo@gmail.com

[JohnGunn]

any manual tranny,needs to get changed,once a year,or 2 years. you re right about oil staying in suspension,if its atf. why dont u,have it flushed out,or just drain it,then use recommended oil. slick 50,sells a lubricant,for trannys,u could try. find a good manual [service] and do what it reccomends.
try not to worry. you re fine. mdoyleufo@gmail.com

Thanks for joining in, Windy.

I agree with you that when you make a change in the fluid you use in your manual transmission, you should do your best to flush out as much as you can of what the previous fluid may have left behind. Since ATF does such a good job of keeping particles in suspension, I think it might be a good flushing agent.

I would, first, just fill with 2.6 quarts of clean ATF before draining it out, without running the engine at all. Do that several times reusing the same fluid each time. Then, throw that fluid away and fill the transmission with fresh ATF and run it for a very short period of time going through the gears once. Then, drain that out, examining the oil in the drain pan for particles in suspension and grit in the drain hole threads. Throw that fluid away and do it over until the fluid comes out perfectly clean.

Then I would put your selected gear oil in the transmission and run it for a few days before draining that out and studying the fluid to see that it is clean. When it comes out clean, consider the flush to be complete, fill with your chosen fluid, and, as you say, "try not to worry about it."

This is basically what I am in the process of doing. The major mistake I made was to leave that first ATF flush in the transmission for 600 miles. It did great harm to my transmission, but it took a while for me to realize it. Don't make that mistake.

When flushing with ATF. Run the car with it for only a few minutes, let's say once around the block, even if you don't have time or space to get up into 4th and 5th gears.

I don't know anything about the transmission product sold by Slick 50, but I would tend to avoid it, mainly because Slick 50 has built its reputation on providing products with highly efficient lubricating properties. That is not necessarily an advantage when it comes to the operation of the sychronizers in a manual transmission. Here is a quote from the Red Line White Paper mentioned earlier in this thread.

All oils are slippery, and with most lubricated
components, the slipperier the better, but this is not so
with manual transmissions. The synchronization of
shifting gears requires friction to transfer energy from the
synchronizer, which is locked to the input shaft, to its
mating surface attached to the gear to be locked in as
the drive gear.

That aside, I think you and I are pretty much in agreement on this topic.

[Jim Rockford]

ATF has been used in gear boxes for years, and I even has a 1980 fullsize Cherokee that used dextron in the 208 transfer case, ATF is a very high deterdent fluid, ever see the inside of a Auto transmission case? after hundreds of thousands of miles they are clean as a pin, even though there may be pockets of sediment if you notice the filter isn't very fine, its not to trap sediment but to catch slightly larger chunks, you will notice when you drop the pan all the sediment is in the bottom of the pan, ATF doesn't suspend particles , the fluid itself stays clean, auto transmission go through alot more shear and pressure than a manual transmission on any given day, My wifes 2002 ZR2 s10 4wd has 228k on it and she bought it new with 6 miles on it and I have NEVER changed the fluid in it, most people with a 4l60E are lucky to get 75k with proper pan drops and fluid changes, as stated earlier in this thread ATF doesn't encounter the same residual products as a engine, so it never wears out. The sncromesh is basicly ATF but with a different additive package just for soft brass parts,if your trans didn't shift good with ATF, then the syncros where already worn out.

[JohnGunn]

Hi, Jim. Thanks for keeping this extremely important subject alive. Everyone with one of these cars needs to be aware of how Ford took a gear box designed by Mazda to use gear oil and decided to recommend using ATF. To my mind, the clear implication is that Ford was only interested in Festivas and Aspires because those sales would bring their fleet-wide CAFE standards down and allow them to continue selling their favored gas hogs at inflated prices and greater profit.

I'm not in a position to dispute whatever you may say about the various cars you have dealt with. My experience has been limited to the 5-speed manuals used in the Festiva and Aspire.

I can say that during my attempt to clean out my transmission, it was clearly evident that the shiny metal particles coming out with the ATF were kept in perfect suspension. They were not being allowed to settle to the bottom as you suggest. Of course, the ability of ATF to hold particles in suspension has its limits. When those limits are exceeded those heavier particles will fall to the bottom of the case, or in the case of an automatic transmission, be caught by the filter.

if your trans didn't shift good with ATF, then the syncros where already worn out.

On this statement of yours, I couldn't disagree with you more. You can read in this thread my extensive report on the condition of my shifting with ATF and how much it improved when I got rid of the ATF and went to Penzoil Synchromesh. The difference was as between night and day. No doubt the ATF had worn the sychronizers in my transmission -- there was physical demonstration and visible proof of that. But it had not worn them out. That would surely have happened had I stubbornly continued to poison it with more ATF.

Switching to the Penzoil saved my transmission. The improvement was immediate and it has continued to shift smoothly. A transmission that was "worn out" would not be able to do that, by my definition of the term. It was the wrong fluid that allowed it to wear and eventually made it appear, to you, "worn out."