Spark plugs?

[Movin]

Right now the NGK is hard to fault! There distribution, at least out here is much better than some others that are hard to fine fault with.

[TominMO]

Here's another much more common source of plug overheating -- the urban myth that spark plugs should be installed using anti-seize compound. If you use the common form of anti-seize compound it will restrict the flow of both current and heat from the plugs through the threads to the head. Sure to contribute to abnormal heat build up.

I've used anti-seize on every car I ever had and never had an issue with it, either current or heat. This sounds like armchair theory to me.

[MasterTec]

Here's another much more common source of plug overheating -- the urban myth that spark plugs should be installed using anti-seize compound. If you use the common form of anti-seize compound it will restrict the flow of both current and heat from the plugs through the threads to the head. Sure to contribute to abnormal heat build up.

I suppose if you use gallons of the stuff yes this could be a problem but using just a tiny dot of anti seize just on the threads like you're supposed to will not present a problem.

Why? Because the plug doesn't just ground out through the threads. It also has metal to metal contact where it seals up to the hole at its base using a cone-shaped seat or a crush washer. This would easily overcome any extra resistance due to anti seize being on the threads.

These plugs do not rely on the threads to provide the seal. This isn't a water pipe...

[citizen caine]

I've used anti-seize on every car I ever had and never had an issue with it, either current or heat. This sounds like armchair theory to me.

+1

[JohnGunn]

I've used anti-seize on every car I ever had and never had an issue with it, either current or heat. This sounds like armchair theory to me.

TominMO, I appreciate you're giving your opinion, but I encourage you to read this post where I give, in detail, the foundation for my "armchair theory."

I'm not interested in adding fuel to this already overheated argument, but I just want to make it clear that there are many, much more knowledgeable authorities sitting in this chair with me.

[blkfordsedan]

I could see that some anti-sieze on the threads may have an effect on the plug's ability to dissipate heat to the head, but on an aluminum head with the proper heat range plug, I can't see that being any more than a negligable factor. I've fought with plugs siezed up in aluminum heads, and I would much rather use a little dab of anti-sieze.

My only issue with the fine wire electrode platinum and irridium plugs is the electrode's ability to dissipate heat (due to the decreased surface area). In a stock car its not a big deal, but it can cause spark knock in some engines with higher compression or advanced timing. I tried Irridiums in my Mustang but switched to plain old Autolite Copper Core at the advice of several professional "tuners". It didn't solve the problem, but it did make a noticable difference.
I also tried both the Bosch +2's and NGK V-powers in my Festy out of curiosity. I actually seemed to notice a slight improvement in performance with the +2's. I even swapped them back and forth several times just to make sure it wasn't in my head. Overall, the throttle response and idle quality seemed better with the +2's. If they didn't make an improvement, I can say with confidence that the Bosch +2's didn't seem to run worse than the NGK's............at least that was my experience.

[nitrofarm]

Here's another much more common source of plug overheating -- the urban myth that spark plugs should be installed using anti-seize compound. If you use the common form of anti-seize compound it will restrict the flow of both current and heat from the plugs through the threads to the head. Sure to contribute to abnormal heat build up.

I've had a set of Bosch Fusion plugs fail after a very short time. I'm convinced they failed because I put too much anti-seize compound on them. I have tested a set of stock Ford plugs on my Aspire without the use of any anti-seize compound and have seen absolutely no sign of seizing. Click here to read my post describing that experiment.

But I should tell you I cleaned the thread holes completely. Otherwise who knows what might be in there to gum up the works.

Just spent 1/2 an hour on one plug because po didnt apply antiseeze on it. Kept filling the hole with PB Blaster. Its got antiseeze on it now John. Did you put your plugs in with none?

[Damkid]

Wow yet another stupid thread based on minor routine maintenance that common sense could answer

I'm sorry but if anti-seize has any effect on its performance, it'd have to be so little that you'd never notice, hence why people use it to avoid having issues in the future

[koRnhead]

Have to agree here.....any decline in performance, either real, or perceived. If far over shadowed by the peace of mind. Knowing your plugs will cleanly and easily come out. Anti-seize on every spark plug. Plus if you sell the car, always nice leaving it ready for the next owner.

[JohnGunn]

Just spent 1/2 an hour on one plug because po didnt apply antiseeze on it. Kept filling the hole with PB Blaster. Its got antiseeze on it now John. Did you put your plugs in with none?

Yep. But I cleaned the hell out of the thread holes. That is the only condition under which I would feel comfortable doing so, after all the horror stories I've heard.

When it comes to an engine about which you know very little, anything is possible. I can easily imagine conditions, say an engine that has sat unused for 5 years, under which plugs and almost anything else could seize. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about plugs that I properly torque into perfectly clean threads without anti-seize and that are driven in a normal way on a regular basis. I don't believe that will cause a plug to seize.

[JohnGunn]

I suppose if you use gallons of the stuff yes this could be a problem but using just a tiny dot of anti seize just on the threads like you're supposed to will not present a problem.

Why? Because the plug doesn't just ground out through the threads. It also has metal to metal contact where it seals up to the hole at its base using a cone-shaped seat or a crush washer. This would easily overcome any extra resistance due to anti seize being on the threads.

These plugs do not rely on the threads to provide the seal. This isn't a water pipe...

There is much truth in what you say, MasterTec. I did use lots of anti-seize on my Bosch Fusion plugs. I still have them, and can see that even the gaskets are stuck to the plugs with a layer of compound. In addition, I tend to agree with you, and Zanzer by the way, that if you lightly coat only the first three threads the effect on heating and conductivity will be negligible.

So why do I bother talking about it? In the end I think it stems from my constant attempt to be sure that the things I accept as true, really are true. In this case, it might not matter, but in others it does. So when I read every spark plug manufacturer recommend not using anti-seize and other individuals say that it is essential, I feel obligated to resolve the contradiction. Whether in small things or large. It is a matter of principle.

When annomaly40 suggested I could run my own experiment to find out who was right, that suggestion struck a resonant chord for me. I admit my inclination was to trust the spark plug designers and makers, but that did not influence in any way how I ran my experiment.

For me it boils down to the desire to base all my decisions on true facts and, in the face of doubt, to use my own experience to cast the deciding vote, if at all possible.

In the end, I will do what I think best. And I expect others will do the same. It would be nice if I thought someone would realize from what I have written that finding truth is worth the effort, no matter how trivial it may appear.

[nitrofarm]

Yep. But I cleaned the hell out of the thread holes. That is the only condition under which I would feel comfortable doing so, after all the horror stories I've heard.

When it comes to an engine about which you know very little, anything is possible. I can easily imagine conditions, say an engine that has sat unused for 5 years, under which plugs and almost anything else could seize. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about plugs that I properly torque into perfectly clean threads without anti-seize and that are driven in a normal way on a regular basis. I don't believe that will cause a plug to seize.

John its disimilar metal corrosion & heat cyclying that cause's the seizing.Now that you cleaned it,its gonna happen even faster. Use anti seize my friend. Its our friend. Steel against aluminum equals corrosion. Now add heat cycles. And youve got a real good weld.:nono:The coating on the plug threads will eventually break down,& the plug welds to the head. No joke-

[JohnGunn]

New Lies

John its disimilar metal corrosion & heat cyclying that cause's the seizing.Now that you cleaned it,its gonna happen even faster. Use anti seize my friend. Its our friend. Steel against aluminum equals corrosion. Now add heat cycles. And youve got a real good weld.:nono:The coating on the plug threads will eventually break down,& the plug welds to the head. No joke-

Thanks for your concern, nitro. And I do believe you are giving me your best advice. In view of that, I'll give you my best response to your concerns.

When I read your comment last night, I decided that it needed no response from me since anything I might say I had already said before, multiple times. But I find my mind continues to process questions even when I am not consciously aware, even in sleep. This morning I awoke thinking about your comment and realized there was something I could add that might give a slightly different twist to my earlier comments.

First, I should say that my experiment is ongoing. (The last time I checked was at 1,300 miles and my mileage is approaching 4,000 miles on those spark plugs. Sometime next week I plan to remove them and evaluate their condition. I'll certainly mention the results here.)

I am determined to continue the experiment and, since I know exactly what has been done, I will trust my results more that what anyone else may say, based on their earlier bad experience. In a case like this, what kind of a man would you be if you deferred to the opinions of others when your own eyes tell you something completely different.

Well, that is just about what I would have written, had I responded last night when I read your comment for the first time.

But I would like to add something new that I hadn't even considered until this morning. It concerns the following question:

"How long should we hold on to old beliefs?"

I would say just about all of the people who have their minds settled and essentially closed on the topic of using anti-seize on all spark plugs can tell horror stories of seized plugs which caused extreme damage.

I don't deny the veracity of their own past experience. And I certainly don't deny that spark plugs have seized in the past. But I suggest most of these horror stories are only telling the last half of the story. The part where they are taking out spark plugs which they did not install and probably know little or nothing about whether the threads had been perfectly cleaned and correctly torqued and that the engine had been regularly driven in a reasonable fashion. In my case, I know that those conditions are being met and when I tell my story it will be the complete story, not just the bad ending of an essentially unknown process.

To people who base long-held and and unyielding beliefs on incomplete information, I say your beliefs are built on sand and you should reevaluate. The easiest thing for you to do is just what I am in the process of doing. Test it for yourself. Then when you tell your story it will be a complete one, one that has real merit.

And even if someone should tell me that they did what I am doing and that the plugs seized and ruined their lives, I would ask when that happened. So far I haven't had anyone who has said, "I've already done that experiment and proven that anti-seize is necessary even when plugs are installed correctly." So I haven't had to ask how long ago they ran their experiment.

Nitro, I'm sure you're aware that lots of spark plugs are sold and there is lots of money to be made selling them. I'm sure you'd agree with me that all of the companies that make them have active research and development sections whose job it is to constantly improve their products. That being the case, would you not also agree that a plug made 10 or 20 years ago would be different, in substantial ways, from one that is being made today?

I'm sure their well trained metallurgists have heard about dissimilar metal corrosion and have given the subject a good deal more thought than you or I or anyone else on this forum. But, more than just thought, they have access to labs, test machines, and research facilities we can't even imagine. They have the luxury of being able to take their thoughts about galvanic corrosion and turn them into hypothesises which they can test by experiment. Shortly said, this is their life.

Is it not possible that in this process they have developed plugs which really don't need anti-seize as their companies universally claim?

It only takes one seized plug to make most people buy and use anti-seize on plugs for the rest of their lives. It could have been 20 or more years ago and they proudly claim they have used anti-seize ever since then and haven't had a single seized plug. My response would be that plugs may well be better than they were 20 years ago and that maybe the spark plug manufactures recommendation not to use anti-seize applies to the plugs they are selling now, not necessarily ones made 20 years ago.

I'm personally, deeply concerned that I base my actions on true facts. But what was true 20 years ago, or even last year in some cases, is not necessarily true now. I admire people who rely on their own experience above whatever the experts may be saying. I give my own experience the highest priority in making any decision, but I am keenly aware that things change and that my past experience must be reevaluated in the light of those changes. Otherwise my old truths become nothing but new lies.

[koRnhead]

John, I will try to say this a kindly as possible.

However its people like you who give others the horror stories!! By deciding not to use anti seize, and by passing on the car perhaps in the future to the next buyer. Who most likely will not have your dedication to maintaining the car. The odds are in favor of one or more of the plugs welding themselves into the head. And all the while that owner or his mechanic will be swearing, and wishing some "idiot" would have used anti seize.

Now I'm definitely not calling you and idiot here. But I think you see my point.

[nitrofarm]

John its not a fair experiment if you pull the plugs every 1,500 miles. If you do that its fine. But if you leave em in dry they will eventually seize. I used to work on large jets. Igniter's are changed according to time in service. Every once in a great while someone forgot to put antiseeze on the old one. Not fun,our engines were 1 million each (rebuilt). No helicoil allowed. One jar of antiseeze can save a lot of money & headaches.Are you sure your plugs burned out due too antiseeze?Thats so odd,I even put it on the washer/crush gasket area.Again steel aluminum dont mix.Dont forget every time you pull the plug when its dry threaded you are risking gallin the threads.And you should install a NEW crush gasket fyi. Good luck