Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Brake Befuddlement

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Brake Befuddlement

    Okay I'm stumped. I recently installed new wheel bearings and brakes. The new brake parts include front rotors, calipers, pads and in the back are new wheel cylinders, drums and shoes. Here's my problem; after installing the new wheel bearings and brake parts, and bleeding the brakes, all 4 brakes are dragging. I've pressed the adjuster dealie in on the rear brakes, PB blasted the parking brake lever and applied anti-seize and made sure it was moving freely. I had the front steering knuckle, rotor, and hub assembly done by a local shop. The way I did the rear wheel bearings since an inch-lbs torque wrench was unavailable to me was tighten the axle nut until it took a lot of force to turn the wheel, then back off till the washer could be moved back and forth with screwdriver then staked it. After I manually bled the brakes with the car off, all 4 of them were dragging. The first time I bled them, I bled in this order; RR, LR, RF, LF. The second time I bled them with the car running in this order; RR, LF, LR, RF.

    My brakes are still dragging. Advice?

  • #2
    Must be some kind of penalty for doing everything right! Push the caliper pistons in a little and loosen the rear shoes a little to see if the brakes are the problem. Apply the brake. If they drag again then something is binding.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm not real familiar with Festiva bearings, but I think they need to be pretorqued to around 150 FT lbs before you loosen them aNd let the wheel spin freely. The bearings need to be pressed/crushed then backed off.
      2008 Kia Rio- new beater
      1987 F-150- revived and CLEAN!!!
      1987 Suzuki Dual Sport- fun beater bike
      1993 Festiva- Fiona, DD
      1997 Aspire- Peaspire, Refurb'd, sold
      1997 Aspire- Babyspire, DD
      1994 Aspire - Project Kiazord
      1994 Aspire- Crustyspire, RIP



      "If it moves, grease it, if it don't, paint it, and if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

      Comment


      • #4
        ^^ Um... NO! Do NOT crank them down to 150ft/lb. I don't have the manual in front of my but I believe the specs for the preload in the back are like 19-22ft/lb or something... Absolutely NOT 150! Sorry for yelling a bunch in this thread, but I don't want folks destroying brand new bearings before they even finish the install.

        Thanks!
        No festiva for me ATM...

        Comment


        • #5
          Plus not tightening them first would make them too loose, not too tight.

          Comment


          • #6
            The FRONT wheels need to be torqued to 150-180. The front spacing is set by the spacer ring between the bearnings, not by the axle nut.

            The REAR brakes need to be tightened until there is no play but the wheels turn freely. The rear bearing spacing is set by the axle nut. I've done it by hand. Just feel the hubs after driving to make sure they are not heating up. Don't use the brakes before feeling the hubs because the brakes will heat up the hub too. You want to feel bearing heat, not brake heat. Also tug on the wheel with the hand brake off to see if there is any play.

            Have you driven the car or are you turning the wheels by hand with the car up on stands? If the latter I'd suggested putting the car down on the ground and driving it around the block applying the brakes a few times. Then try again. First, the front bearings can drag until they get the weight of the car on them to "set" them. Second, the pads may be sticking on the pins they slide on. (You could try greasing the pins.) Third, the rear hand brake piviot may be sticking. (It's outside at the back. They rust and stick.)
            Last edited by WmWatt; 06-12-2012, 08:11 AM.
            Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by WmWatt View Post
              The FRONT wheels need to be torqued to 150-180. The front spacing is set by the spacer ring between the bearnings, not by the axle nut.
              Precisely! Thanks for clarifying that. I was just hoping noone would be reading about torquing the back ones and then see that 150 and just romp on it with a breaker bar!
              No festiva for me ATM...

              Comment


              • #8
                Do some stop and go and some forward-backward stops. That should burn the fuzzies
                off and seat the shoes. Then see if the wheels are easy to turn.

                If not then remove just one caliper to push the piston back in. You want to verify that
                fluid can be returned to the master cylinder.
                Reflex paint by Langeman...Lifted...Tow Rig

                Comment


                • #9
                  I tightened the rear spindle nut to ~21lbs and the front axle nut to 150lbs. I have already taken off the brakes after the first bleed and reset them. On the front I reset them by pressing the piston back in. However, I did not check to see if the fluid was being pushed back into the reservoir while pressing the caliper piston back in.

                  When I installed the rear wheel bearings, I made sure that the wheels spun freely and that there was no wheel play. Of course the wheels spun freely before the brakes started dragging. I checked for wheel play by installing the wheel and screwed the lug nuts on to spec, placed hands at 12 and 6 position and pulled and pushed, then placed hands at 9 and 3 and pushed and pulled. No play on either side.

                  I have not driven the car yet. All of this has been done on jack stands. I will grease the pins but I don't think that will affect anything. The rear hand brake pivot point has been pampered with PB blaster, wire brush and anti-seize and it pivots fine.

                  Here is what I will try to get done before work today; 1. grease caliper pins. 2. press caliper piston in and check to see if fluid returns to reservoir. 3. Drive it around block and brake forwards and backwards.

                  I will get back to you guys in a few hours. Thanks for all of the advice!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I just test drove it. I greased the caliper pins and pressed the caliper piston back in and checked the brake fluid reservoir. The fluid did return to the reservoir during the pressing of the caliper piston.

                    After I returned from the test drive, my wheels were warm not hot, but my rotors and drums were extremely hot!

                    I forgot to mention after I had preloaded the rear bearings, it made a sound when turning the drum like the bearings had not even been greased and it was just metal on metal. Is this a normal sound? I know for sure that I greased them well. The only reason I could think that this noise occurred was that maybe I didn't apply enough grease between the spindle and inner drum.

                    Also, most of the noise while driving came from the rear. Neighbors were turning their heads when I got near with a WTH-look on their face.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by htchbck View Post
                      ^^ Um... NO! Do NOT crank them down to 150ft/lb. I don't have the manual in front of my but I believe the specs for the preload in the back are like 19-22ft/lb or something... Absolutely NOT 150! Sorry for yelling a bunch in this thread, but I don't want folks destroying brand new bearings before they even finish the install.

                      Thanks!
                      I did say I wasn't real familiar with the festiva bearings, insinuating I could be wrong, so anyone with sense about them would double check the information. He mentioned inch pounds, and I knew the fronts were done in foot pounds above the average inch pound torque wrenchs' range, so it would be logical to assume he didn't torque the front bearings right, right? Just trying to get him pointed in the right direction. I guess we were both half right, since the fronts ARE torqued 117-175 ft lbs. I would not have thought you were "e-yelling" at me had you not said something, thanks for that.


                      OP, you would be ahead to read this over a few times, http://www.scribd.com/doc/26457170/1...Festiva-Manual

                      How are you bleeding the brakes, maybe there's still air in the lines? Metal on metal is never good, I'd take off the rear drums and make sure everything seated properly when installed, I had some nasty grinding one time and it was because the e-brake tensioner spring wasn't on correctly, which caused the adjuster arm with teeth to pop out and rub the inside of the drum, ruining it.
                      Last edited by zoom zoom; 06-12-2012, 05:21 PM.
                      2008 Kia Rio- new beater
                      1987 F-150- revived and CLEAN!!!
                      1987 Suzuki Dual Sport- fun beater bike
                      1993 Festiva- Fiona, DD
                      1997 Aspire- Peaspire, Refurb'd, sold
                      1997 Aspire- Babyspire, DD
                      1994 Aspire - Project Kiazord
                      1994 Aspire- Crustyspire, RIP



                      "If it moves, grease it, if it don't, paint it, and if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Its really hard for everyone on here to diagnose a problem like this.Especially when we didnt do the work. The noise you are hearing in the back MAY be coming from the drum rotating and rubbing the backing plate.This could be caused by a couple of things. There is a groove that is in the outside of the drum that is supposed to mesh with the backing plate.Maybe youurs are rusty and got deformed during the course of the brake job.Check this possible contact point. Get the car on a jack check tires for preload.You shouldnt be able to wiggle the tire at 3 & 9 oclock. If you dont have enough preload on the bearings.The drum can move around & rub the backing plate also.
                        As far as the brake drag- One reason I've seen brake drag on these brakes AFTER a brake job. Rusty/Binding caliper floaters. They are fine till you have to force them ALL the way back into the caliper to accomodate the much thicker pads. If those floater tubes arent able to "Float" back & forth with simple hand movemant.They will cause major problems. Like I said without seeing the brakes its really hard. But I've had "NEW REMAN" calipers from NAPA,that had dragging.Turned out they only replaced one of those pins in the caliper.The one was severly corroded.And the other brand new.It's also possible that your Master Cyl just decided to "Give up the Ghost".But thats kind of unlikely.
                        Last edited by nitrofarm; 06-12-2012, 05:16 PM.
                        Some people like to read fiction,I prefer to read repair manuals. Weird I know-
                        Henry Ford: "Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently"
                        Fuseable Link Distribution Block repair link

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Take a look at the following and see if you notice anything about the bearings.
                          Store your photos and videos online with secure storage from Photobucket. Available on iOS, Android and desktop. Securely backup your memories and sign up today!


                          Highly improbable but if the rear brake springs didn't go back on right the shoes won't retract when you take your foot off the brake pedal.
                          Last edited by WmWatt; 06-12-2012, 07:30 PM.
                          Original owner of silver grey carburetted 1989 Festiva. 105k km as of June 2006. 140k km as of June 2021.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Master cylinder not resetting fully, methinks. Try disconnecting and plugging the booster line and driving like that, see if it still happens. If it does, check if the brake pedal is returning fully by giving it a firm tug on the pedal pad. Sometimes you can identify it that way, on my Golf I actually had to change the M/C, but I also had other indications it was bad.

                            The springs in the M/C or booster are probably weak, is what I'm getting at. Removing vacuum from teh booster will identify a weak booster return spring, and if the pedal moves, it identifies a weak M/C piston spring or a sticking/wiped MC piston.
                            Last edited by Christ; 06-12-2012, 07:59 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The noise that is coming from the rear is definitely the shoes dragging the drums. You guys that are replying keep referring to the rear brakes more so than the front. Is there a reason for this because the issue with the dragging is the front AND rear brakes.

                              Here is a list of the following steps I have taken to try and diagnose my problem:

                              1. Having an assistant pump the brake pedal 20 times, hold it then remove the brake reservoir cap, assistant release brake pedal quickly and check for air returning to the reservoir. No air.
                              2. Have assistant slowly depress brake then quickly release while monitoring fluid level. If the fluid level rises during brake depression and then drops when pedal is released, but the overall level remains the m/c is bypassing. During this test, the fluid dropped during brake depression and jumped back up when quickly released.
                              3. Loosen the nuts attaching the m/c to the booster and pull m/c away from booster. Then, without brakes applied, attempt to rotate wheels by hand. (They still dragged) To overcome brake pad drag, rock the wheels on the spindles. (Still no affect)
                              4. Pump brakes several times then hold. Start engine and let idle. The brake pedal moved towards the floor like its supposed to.
                              5. Run engine for couple of minutes. Depress pedal with normal force several times. If the pedal stroke is long at first and becomes shorter with subsequent strokes, the booster is operating. And it did.
                              6. Start engine. Depress pedal with normal force, hold pedal down and wait 30 seconds. If pedal height remains unchanged, booster is operating. And it did.
                              7. Open bleeder valve without brake pedal depressed on all four corners to see if there was excessive pressure built up. No excessive pressure.
                              8. Bleed brakes again while assistant depressed brake pedal with force in attempt to clear lines from debris. Lines were clear with no debris.

                              Steps 1-6 were from my OEM manual. There were other steps but they required a vacuum gauge and I don't have one.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X