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  • Antifreeze is important!!

    For years I have had people wanting better oil, wanting a special additive, the latest and greatest...sheesh!

    My answer is we no longer have high pressure wear points like the old non roller v8 engines, unless you are building something with those kind of stress points why??

    Barring loss of oil the head gasket will fail first. This can destroy the engine at worst, at best a major engine repair. These same people wanting to teflon there internals or what ever will be the ones with rusty water for coolant!! Every time!! Fortunately this toxic waste is usually dumped on the road somewhere before it gets to the shop, What am I supposed to do with stuff this bad??

    Okay, ranting about a power stroke with toxic coolant that corroded out the metal around the oil cooler orings and then pumped 2 gallons of engine oil into the radiator before the engine died, while passing a line of cars on hwy 97. Yes..the truck is covered with diesel oil and army faded green coolant, as is the line of car!!

    What does a head gasket have to do with coolant?
    If you rub your finger inside the radiator or the engine chances are you will have a finger full of scum. This coating is just like a coat on you , it keeps heat in. This means that all things cooled by coolant run hotter as this scum starts to build. Your temp gauge will never show this because the coolant is still the same temperature.

    As internals run hotter oil becomes a coolant and it darkens sooner than when the engine was new. The poor head gasket has no oil to cool it so it starts to break down. Other gaskets designed to hold in oil also age much sooner than a clean engine would as hotter oil breaks down and besides cooking gaskets and seals it carries more acids than it would if the engine were new.

    The first thing to do would be to get a cooling system cleaner like Mercedes, Cummins and many others supply their shops with to remove this scum and restore cooler temps to engine parts. This proprietary stuff looks and acts just like cascade dishwasher machine detergent. Most shops in the know use this, a few use things like simple green or oil eater but hey, if a dishwasher with hot water, orings and plastics last for 10 years or more on this stuff it has to have some good things in it. Run a day, rinse and repeat until the water comes out clean. Before you ask, NO a bottle of radiator flush will not clean like this. It also may leave behind harmful chemicals unlike dishwasher detergent. After you have clean metal for excellent heat transfer both in the engine and in the radiator you are ready for new coolant.

    New Coolant? There are so many options, but there was this guy that writes way better than I do and he knows what he is talking about. Highly recommended read for those wanting to learn something.



    Cool!
    Reflex paint by Langeman...Lifted...Tow Rig


  • #2
    I was thinking of using Cascade to flush my cooling system.

    But when reading up on it more, one of the ingredients of Cascade is chlorine, and chlorine eats away at aluminum. Now considering the heads on our B-Series motors are aluminum, that makes me a bit nervous, it really depends on how fast it eats at the aluminum.
    1991 Ford Festiva BP (Full Aspire/Rio Swap) (337k Miles) (Around 95k Engine)
    2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport 2.2L DOHC Ecotec (Threw a Rod)
    1998 Chevy Monte Carlo LS 3.1 V6 (225k miles) Best MPG = 28

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    • #3
      So what is the system cleaner called? Can we, Festy owners, buy it? Where can we buy it? I can't find Cascade without additives anywhere local.
      Last edited by navdoc101; 03-10-2013, 03:51 PM.
      If it don't fit, use a bigger hammer!


      '93 Green L - ' Tiva

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      • #4
        Complete surprise!
        But I suspect that you wouldn't being doing this without having had some sort of momentary of earth-shaking experience. I replaced the heater core on a 99 Taurus last week (in an emergency and turned out to be lots of work) and the old one was so choked with debris and sediment that I couldn't even blow through it.
        So, what you're saying about coolants is not wasted on me.

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        • #5
          this is a revised edited - re-edited rerevised version of the lengthy double talking post I first put up and was unable to correct or edit or delete. guess i don't have enough clout to kill my own rambeling jumbled-up post.

          @movin - Interesting article, although it maybe belongs in the diesel forum. Since we are on a roll I'll agree with your comments and add to them.
          Ford Motor Company learned about Supplemental Coolant Additives the hard way with warranty claims against the 6.9 Diesel. Engineers found that as a diesel runs the cylinder walls vibrate so badly and at such a high rate that it caused little low pressure pinpoints inside the water jacket. The engine made little tiny bubbles on the cylinder wall. This low pressure area even though small caused momentary localized boiling. As soon as the spot of boiling coolant hit the cooler general coolant flowing past there was a violent collapse of the bubble. This caused a minute spot of damage (etched) to the cylinder wall as the engine ran. Over time the etching caused a pinhole leak from the water jacket into the cylinder. Ford warranty skyrocketed as a result from dealer techs replacing engines because of coolant in the oil - hole in the block. Engineers were quick to arrest the situation they named "cavitation corrosion". An additive to the coolant for the most part cured this condition. Thus a new generation of Ford high speed diesels was born into the passenger car world.
          Festivas (this forum) don't have problems with cylinder wall vibration. But we do need to pay close attention to the cooling system. the rust and slime you refered to is typical of Festiva neglect. Just like engine oil coolant fails over time. We need to change the coolant every 3 years because of chemical breakdown that will lead to other problems like leaks, poor heater function (winter) and running hotter than desired (summer).
          I am flushing my cooling system right now using an electric water pump and El Cheapo WalMarto dishwasher soap. CLR may have been a better choice, but I am a Ford Festiva guy and $2 looks better to me than $12 even though it may take longer. I could have just dumped the coolant, rinsed, and added the dishwasher soap and driven on for a week or so, but there is the risk of water pump failure due to a lack of lube. If you're running straight water then fear not the damage is already being done. I decided I wanted to see it really well cleaned. Rather than run the engine to circulate the cleaner (gas is near $4/gal) I yanked the thermostat and I rigged up a swamp cooler pump (you east coast guys will ask "what's that"?') with some old hoses reverse flowing. I aimed the top hose out of the radiator into my bucket pumping in past the missing tstat, recirculating now 4 hours. It is looking really good inside, almost done. The heater will work better and the cooling system will be more efficient,and most of all I will have peace of mind this summer. I took a photo of the set-up. You'll see an extra hose in the picture that I used to flush the plugged heater core seperately.
          Watching my radiator repair guy "rod" a radiator, I learned a trick. I took a straight stainless steel strip from an old windshield wiper blade and pushed it down into one of the two tubes that are visible through the filler neck, (careful .... don't hurt the core!) just to see how plugged up the apparently new looking radiator is/was. It slid in nicely until I got down near the bottom where I felt the crunching of the corrosion build up in the tubes. So, clean it up and keep cool, it's one less thing to worry about, if you were worried.

          Coolant flush.jpg
          Last edited by Pu241; 03-10-2013, 09:30 PM. Reason: ADDED PIC
          '88 LX (VIN#30) one of the first Built 12/86
          '88 L (VIN#55753) Built 12/87
          '93 GL one of the last Built 5/19/93

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          • #6
            Perhaps I'm a bit dense to make sense out of all this but I do now at least understand why regular coolant changes are necessary. It is not as simple as the old days when there were only steel parts, cast iron blocks, cast iron heads and brass radiators.
            Movin: I've switched entirely over to the Prestone version of Dexcool over the past few years. I hope this meets with your approval.

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            • #7
              I worked for Ford during those times, but Ford put there diesel on the market years after others such as Mack, Cat, Cumins , Detroit and others had already learned..Thank you International Navistar! Heat and vibration make cavitation damage predominate in Diesel engines yes but the coolant types, methods of extended excellent service really should benefit us as Festy owners. My own plugged up corroded heater core years ago when I got my Festy at auction was warning enough. I switched to truck rated coolant and installed a Chevy heater core with mods.

              As for Festy applicable uses I am concerned that the metal in the engine is running considerably hotter than the the coolant itself because over time this build up hold heat in the metal that the coolant cannot reach. This cooks seals, gaskets and oil. Engine oil coolers help but we do not have that. We get leaks from gaskets and seals as the result, sooner than we should. Heat transfer through metal works just like electricity through metal, it has to be clean to work good !

              None of this is new information, fleets were part of studies done in the 50's around here way before I was born. We even know better, my point is coolant brings down an engine on average far more often than oil failure yet we put additives, conditioners, Teflon and high quality oil in our engines and then turn around and shop for the cheapest generic back market antifreeze we can find to put in our cooling system....if we put anything other than tap water!! It should at least be de-ionized !

              Before I left to run the sno-cat I used orange scented Cascade that was on sale for 5 bucks, the house brand was more because the box was bigger. None of my camp gear aluminum dish ware has a problem with cascade and it has lubricants for the dishwasher pump..Am I worried about trace amounts left? no.
              30 years ago a preacher man came into the shop with the cleanest radiator I had ever seen. He was running 2 tablespoons of dish soap in the coolant all the time. His Plymouth Valiant with 225 slant six and original radiator were 10 years into this experiment when he moved, with everything still clean and shiny. If the solder , lead and tin in that radiator looked so shiny and new with dish detergent, after 10 years why would I question its use as opposed to "radiator flush" in a bottle that says do not leave in system as damage will result? I guess if you have used stop leak to fix seeps I would worry!

              AGAIN my point is , if you have scum in your coolant passages your temp gauge is lying to you. Your metal is way hotter than your coolant! Clean it so the metal, seals, gaskets and oil can all be the same temp as the coolant, the whole package will live longer!!!!!
              Reflex paint by Langeman...Lifted...Tow Rig

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              • #8
                Frequently asked questions.

                Coolant mix and overheating.

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                • #9
                  Cool. Thanks for that.
                  Any difference that makes no difference is no difference.

                  Old Blue- New Tricks
                  91 Festiva FSM PDF - Dropbox

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Movin View Post
                    .....Before I left to run the sno-cat I used orange scented Cascade that was on sale for 5 bucks, the house brand was more because the box was bigger. None of my camp gear aluminum dish ware has a problem with cascade and it has lubricants for the dishwasher pump..Am I worried about trace amounts left? no.
                    30 years ago a preacher man came into the shop with the cleanest radiator I had ever seen. He was running 2 tablespoons of dish soap in the coolant all the time. His Plymouth Valiant with 225 slant six and original radiator were 10 years into this experiment when he moved, with everything still clean and shiny. If the solder , lead and tin in that radiator looked so shiny and new with dish detergent, after 10 years why would I question its use as opposed to "radiator flush" in a bottle that says do not leave in system as damage will result? I guess if you have used stop leak to fix seeps I would worry!
                    Movin -

                    Hey, THANKS for the info. Will have to take off my radiator cap and see what condition my radiator/fluid is in.

                    So, question for you....

                    did the preacher with the ultra-clean radiator tell you what kind of dish detergent he was using or is just using your "orange scented cascade" good enough?

                    BTW, your Cascade is in liquid detergent form, correct?

                    And, what is the quantity of Cascade per radiator fill you're using? Yeah, I see what the minister was using for an amount, but what about you?

                    Thanks!
                    Last edited by Twistiva; 03-11-2013, 02:50 PM.
                    88L - 'Twistiva' - 'The Fusion of Man and Machine'
                    88LX - 'Laztiza' - Future Resurrection Project
                    91L - 'Mistiva' - My Daughter's DD
                    93L - 'Vextiva' - Airport Car

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                    • #11
                      Just picked up some fresh scented powdered Cascade today and some 50/50 Prestone Anti-freeze.

                      I would also like to know what is an acceptable amount, all the truck forums say a couple scoops of Cascade, but their cooling systems I imagine are allot bigger than our little ecobox cooling systems.

                      Hopefully this doesn't make the very slow leak at my waterpump bigger.
                      1991 Ford Festiva BP (Full Aspire/Rio Swap) (337k Miles) (Around 95k Engine)
                      2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport 2.2L DOHC Ecotec (Threw a Rod)
                      1998 Chevy Monte Carlo LS 3.1 V6 (225k miles) Best MPG = 28

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TorqueEffect View Post
                        Just picked up some fresh scented powdered Cascade today and some 50/50 Prestone Anti-freeze.

                        I would also like to know what is an acceptable amount, all the truck forums say a couple scoops of Cascade, but their cooling systems I imagine are allot bigger than our little ecobox cooling systems......
                        Nice to know I'm not the only with questions!
                        88L - 'Twistiva' - 'The Fusion of Man and Machine'
                        88LX - 'Laztiza' - Future Resurrection Project
                        91L - 'Mistiva' - My Daughter's DD
                        93L - 'Vextiva' - Airport Car

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well I put a cup of Cascade for a big pitcher of water, working on rinsing right now, after draining the mix with the cascade it came out green because of the leftover coolant still left in the system. The first rinse came out clouded with a hint of brown and green. Got my second rinse in there now, looks like it will be more of the same, if not worse than the first rinse.

                          I hate how these engines get on the brink of overheating before sucking the water into the engine. Am I doing something wrong? Am I supposed to remove the thermostat when doing this?
                          I leave the radiator cap off to allow the system to burp, but water/coolant doesn't start flowing into the engine until I see steam coming from around the engine itself. It is scaring the hell out of me, I am afraid I am doing damage.
                          1991 Ford Festiva BP (Full Aspire/Rio Swap) (337k Miles) (Around 95k Engine)
                          2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport 2.2L DOHC Ecotec (Threw a Rod)
                          1998 Chevy Monte Carlo LS 3.1 V6 (225k miles) Best MPG = 28

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                          • #14
                            Well, cooling system is now flushed, and filled with 50/50 Prestone.

                            Can't say that I am too impressed with the Cascade flush.
                            Who knows, maybe I didn't add enough cascade to the mix, maybe the system was flushed not too long ago after this motor was dropped in by the previous owner.

                            I don't know, I did get some crud out, and I got my well water antifreeze mix out of there and replaced with something proper.

                            Going to try and convince my friend to let me try the Cascade stuff on his 00' Stratus when he does his thermostat, his coolant tank looked nasty.
                            1991 Ford Festiva BP (Full Aspire/Rio Swap) (337k Miles) (Around 95k Engine)
                            2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport 2.2L DOHC Ecotec (Threw a Rod)
                            1998 Chevy Monte Carlo LS 3.1 V6 (225k miles) Best MPG = 28

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TorqueEffect View Post
                              Well, cooling system is now flushed, and filled with 50/50 Prestone.

                              Can't say that I am too impressed with the Cascade flush.
                              Who knows, maybe I didn't add enough cascade to the mix, maybe the system was flushed not too long ago after this motor was dropped in by the previous owner.

                              I don't know, I did get some crud out, and I got my well water antifreeze mix out of there and replaced with something proper.

                              Going to try and convince my friend to let me try the Cascade stuff on his 00' Stratus when he does his thermostat, his coolant tank looked nasty.
                              you need to leave the cap on or it will not pressurize the system right and force it through the engine.
                              "FLTG4LIFE" @FINALLEVEL , "PBH"
                              89L Silver EFI auto
                              91GL Green Auto DD
                              There ain't no rest for the wicked
                              until we close our eyes for good.
                              I will sleep when I die!
                              I'm a little hunk of tin, nobody knows what shape I'm in. I've got four wheels and a running board, I'm not a Chevy, I'M A FORD!

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