well, im an idiot.

[turbokid]

Well, i feel like an idiot and happy at the same time.
story goes like this, about a year and a half ago i swapped in a BP into my festy. the donor car was a 93 protege with an unknown no start issue. After a little digging i discovered that while the engine was cranking the cam gears and distributor were not. turns out the timing belt had several inches of ribs stripped off..


so without ever seeing if the engine actually ran in the protege i crossed my fingers and pulled it out and replaced the timing belt. The donor car actually came with a maintenance manual like chilton so i used that to help with the timing belt install. That book proved to be more confusing than helpful, saying things like, "turn the engine by hand 1 and 5/6 turns and check timing marks" so i did my best and from what i could see it was all working properly while spinning the motor by hand.

After i finally finished the swap into the festiva i spent a good long while chasing a bad idle and hesitation in the upper RPM's. ( idle sucked, top end sucked, mid range at part throttle felt good.) Because the protege sat in a backyard for an unknown amount of time, i replaced the plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and pcv. this cleaned up the idle a bit but it still sounded like a tractor. seemed like a vacuum leak to me so i went around spraying starting fluid everywhere trying to find it with no luck. I finally gave up and let it sit all winter. Then the other day i starting digging into it again, and decided to reset the ignition timing just to be sure everything is done right. On a whim I loosened the distributor while it was running and and started hunting for a good idle, and finally found it with the distributor all the way advanced. Idle was way better but still not right and a quick drive proved to be motivating, way faster now it was ripping around pretty good. Being really bothered about having to advance the timing that far to get it to run right i pulled off the timing belt cover to see if the timing marks were lined up. (because the distributor gets it signal about where the engine is in its rotation from the cam i suspected I botched the timing belt install.)
Turns out i was right. the intake was off by a tooth and so was the exhaust. looked like this, / \


After a quick look on here and club protege and FEOA i found that in order for the timing marks to be correct they have to be under a little bit of spring tension from the valve springs. i wrongly assumed that wherever the cam gears rested while under no tension with the timing marks facing up was were it needed to be. So i redid the timing belt with the help of my wife because you need more than two hands and ended up with this...


started up and runs like a brand new car and is pretty quick too ! Needs moar turbo though

so there it is, im retarded and I should turn in my "car guy" badge.

And another thing!!! A further mystery to me, during all this timing belt business i discovered that the factory marks to set ignition timing on the BP with the stock B3 crank pulley installed are waaaay off. Im pretty sure it can only go on one way but with #1 cylinder at TDC the marks are nowhere near where they should be. There is not enough adjustment in the distributor to get them close with a timing light either.
I took this picture but its kinda hard to see but this is with the STI grounded (no timing adjustment from ECU) and the distributor in the location it came when i got it ( and where it runs right) the timing marks are at roughly 12 o'clock when the timing light blinks. Any attempts to get these marks to line up with the 10* BTDC marks on the timing belt cover make it run like garbage. WTF ?!

the timing mark is painted yellow


feel free to laugh at my mistake, i deserve it.

[sketchman]

Mine was worse, because I traded the car before it was caught. So no laughing from me. Humans will be humans, unfortunately.

It happens.

[Larry Hampton]

You can do the timing belt by yourself, but you need to use spring clamps (think large clothespins). You clamp to the crank and get one lined up right, then clamp it, the last one falls into place with the tensioner. Sometimes if the springs turn the cam away from the crank, the teeth on the belt hold it in place.

One thing to note, I replaced the belt on a Mercury Villager and marked the old belt. The new belt came with marks, but they were incorrect. I had to transfer the marks from the old belt onto the new one. Counting teeth works too, but wouldnt have helped in your instance.

[sketchman]

SOHC FTW.

[htchbck]

Counting teeth works too, but wouldnt have helped in your instance.

Always helps once you have the belt on to verify that there are 19 teeth of the belt in between the cam timing marks. If not then you know right away something is off... like on his where it was out by a tooth on both sides. Only 17 teeth in between. On a BP counting teeth won't line up the whole thing for you, but if you have the crank right, belt pulled taut, and the exh cam in the right spot, the 19 teeth rule will line up the intake cam for you at least. Thats how I do it by myself, I line up the crank and exhaust, then just slip it straight onto the intake cam and tensioner.

Also, the 1 5/6 turns they mentioned is for setting the tensioner. Once the belt is one you let the tensioner go, then turn 2 full turns. If everything lines up, THEN you do the 1 5/6 turn. There is another mark thats pretty hard to see with the engine in the car, but its there. When you get to that mark that is when you lock then tensioner down.

[PhoenixSHO]

You are not stupid , happens to everyone of us.

In the sho engine , the timing marks/setup is VERY similar to this , and people get caught all the time.

[navdoc101]

Yep, happens to all, This too shall pass!

[turbokid]

Thanks dudes. I'm just glad that it runs good now. On the very first drive when it was running crappy I was like, "this is the almighty BP swap everybody raves about?" haha. Now it zips along nicely.

Anybody have any ideas on the ignition timing marks I described earlier?

[Bert]

Nice to hear about honest trials and tribulations of backyard mechanics every now and again. Most of us get 'red-faced' when something happens but very few are man enough to admit it. I remember swapping out every imaginable ignition part and wire I could find (because there was no spark) on an EFI Festy for the better part of a day only to have a street passerby suggest to me to check the timing belt. Sure enough it was shredded, and I boy did I feel like a fool.

[blkfordsedan]

Buy yourself an adjustable timing light and forget about the marks on the bottom pulley.

[nitrofarm]

Always helps once you have the belt on to verify that there are 19 teeth of the belt in between the cam timing marks. If not then you know right away something is off... like on his where it was out by a tooth on both sides. Only 17 teeth in between. On a BP counting teeth won't line up the whole thing for you, but if you have the crank right, belt pulled taut, and the exh cam in the right spot, the 19 teeth rule will line up the intake cam for you at least. Thats how I do it by myself, I line up the crank and exhaust, then just slip it straight onto the intake cam and tensioner.

Also, the 1 5/6 turns they mentioned is for setting the tensioner. Once the belt is one you let the tensioner go, then turn 2 full turns. If everything lines up, THEN you do the 1 5/6 turn. There is another mark thats pretty hard to see with the engine in the car, but its there. When you get to that mark that is when you lock then tensioner down.

Thanks for this,makes it really simple to understand. 19 teeth easy peasy lemon sqeezy

Thanks dudes. I'm just glad that it runs good now. On the very first drive when it was running crappy I was like, "this is the almighty BP swap everybody raves about?" haha. Now it zips along nicely.

Anybody have any ideas on the ignition timing marks I described earlier?

Thanks for sharing Turbokid,not always easy to admit.But at least you educated me! Thx-

Buy yourself an adjustable timing light and forget about the marks on the bottom pulley.

How can I set "Base" timing without knowing were TDC is indicated?

[sketchman]

Crank gear has a notch that lines up with an arrow above it, or something similar to that. It's obvious once you're looking for it. I don't ever use the marks for the pulley.

[nitrofarm]

Crank gear has a notch that lines up with an arrow above it, or something similar to that. It's obvious once you're looking for it. I don't ever use the marks for the pulley.

Crank gear......how do you get a timing lite on that? I always verify "Static" timing on my engines when I have them out,then mark the TDC & 10 deg notch on the pulley with paint if its correct. What I'm asking is how does somone set "Base" timing without a reference? Mazda put the marks there for a reason right?

[sketchman]

Oh, seemed like you were asking how to find TDC without the marks. Gotcha now.

[Movin]

If the marks are dead on and marked with paint can you use the cam marks ?