Still No Spark

[getnpsi]

that one blows my mind...post 7...main relay hot no cooling fan...check that one

[burnt_toast]

Hmm, yeah those pictures suck. Either way I have to take a look at this damn key switch. I've finally found something physically wrong with the car. It's hard to believe it finally broke right when I parked it in the driveway and it's hard to believe all the wiggling I did to try and get the CEL to come on did nothing, but it can't be overlooked. Right now, for troubleshooting, I'm going to try an just jump across the 2 solder points of these wires with something... see if I can the CEL to light. I'm still confuzzled as to how the RUN wire (BK/R) is only hot when starting, yet all the instruments (except CEL) light up when key is ON. That shouldn't be possible. Anyway, some more schematics to look at there showing the key switch in it's natural habitat and not just how it relates to one system in the car... that's handy.

Hopefully I can just make a jumper wire, make the CEL come on, and dance for joy. I can't keep going around rebuilding everything that seems a little janky. I gotta keep to the troubleshooting. "Make the CEL come on" is my only mission right now.
-toast

[burnt_toast]

that one blows my mind...post 7...main relay hot no cooling fan...check that one

Yeah, I will have to read it again. I already know my cooling fan works though in my specific case, but maybe the guy is onto something else of importance. If you just unplug the wire to the sending unit on the thermostat, the fan will come on (really scary when you have a multimeter balanced on the radiator cap, don't ask how I know).
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[burnt_toast]

Suggestion:

Alternators can be screwy also, and are an important part of the system. Not to just keep batt charged, but also part of the circuit, and can completely screw with your mind.

Yeah the alternator is brand new. Even if it was bad from the factory, I dunno how it would affect the ECA directly.

Anyway, time to make a to-do list for the Festy today... in another 2 hours the sun will be a little lower and I'll have to trudge back out there.
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[burnt_toast]

Ok only got a little bit done. I checked the ground block on the RF fender. It was behind the airbox but it looked great. Nothing to report. I cleaned it anyway and probed each wire with the logic probe before and after and got the green light.

So I went to the ignition switch. I DEFINITELY have different wiring than the schematic as far as color, but the plastic housing had the ignition wire labelled (it's BK/Y on mine) and the RUN wire if the BK/W. Doesn't matter though, check this out:

I made a jumper wire to go straight from the hot wire (WHITE) to the IGNITION and RUN wires. The RUN wire works as it should, or at least it flips on all the warning lights except the CEL. The incorrect wiring colors from the schematic messed me up though so I didn't yet jump to the IGNITION wire (I'm doing this as a short cut to taking the switch mechanism apart for all you lurkers, to supply current directly from wire to wire, bypassing anything inside the switch).

Unfortunately after that I got distracted because the fuel pump was running constantly (VAF somehow cracked open). Once I figured that out and moved on, the sun was going down. I tried to get the codes by grounding the single wire and then probing the STI wire with the logic probe... it just went from green to red when I turned the key ON. No flashes, no nothing. I Reckon there are no codes and I had cranked the engine several times since the last time I disconnected the battery. It should have codes... the ECT and injectors are still unplugged.

I know, I didn't get much done. It's getting to the point of diminishing returns. I need to focus on some other stuff around the house. Maybe after a couple days off something will come to light. I'm only actually on the car for 1-2 hrs a day, but I'm reading schematics and posts for another couple hours too. I gotta get back on ebay and sell some stuff or they're gonna shut the power off
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[getnpsi]

I gotta get back on ebay and sell some stuff or they're gonna shut the power off :icon_smile:

Yeah tell me about it. I got on the Edison LEVEL PAY PLAN...hit me with a balloon payment last month. Why bill@69 a month when >99 is what you need to not have a 500 dollar surprise...Hell my boss had a 2500 surprise because disabled inlaw came to live with him...If i wasn't working 6 days I'd offer to come up, do some shopping at your pad mr moto man. I'd love to help in all ways, getting your car going being one of them of course. Hell you should put your stuff up for sale on here too, lots of bike guys.


I don't think the ecu is going to give you a code if its not firing up to see a problem in the first place. The readout for codes is to flash the stinking cel light unless you have a proper reader...lol...NOT lol, its NOT funny =/ You took your computer out and switched it, so that one that is in there now has never seen power in the sense to have the output on the cel bulb or giving instruction for spark. There was confusion on which plug was even STI on one thread, some kind of important misinformation went around I had to fish thru to diagnose my own festy when i bought it.

[tooldude]

I wanted to say you might have an Ign switch from a 1988 if you have the solid blue wire but that seemed "iffy", and there's been so much commenting. Here are the wire colors from the '88 schematic: Start BK/R ; Ign BK/Y ; On (run) BK/W ; Acc BL ; B+ from main fuse link W/R. The BK/R & BK/W wires for '88 have different positions than '92. The only Ign switch with a BL/Y wire on it is the '88, if you have that wire, you have the '88 switch and the positions may be wrong. How the alternator can play into the Ign switch wiring?- it's connected to the B+ wire to W/R. Too many amps went through that switch (the smoke signal), it needs checking internally or maybe replacing.

[burnt_toast]

Well damn, does anyone know how far into the harness I have to cut before I get to the connector between the switch and the harness? feeling with my hands I don't feel a connector anywhere, and that sucker goes right under the dash and into oblivion. Pulling that thing apart looks like quite a mess but I suppose I can clear some bench space off.

tooldude, yes, those are the colors of wires I have. Perhaps my car was an early VIN number and they were using left over stock at the factory?Seems unlikely since they went injected in '90. Maybe it went bad on the previous owner? It only had 75k miles when I bought it. All moot points though. I got what I got.

As far as pulling the key switch apart, why can't I just make a jumper across the power wire and the INJECTOR wire like I did for the RUN wire? Provides direct power without the hassle of rebuilding the switch, yes? Or does that risk arcing something? It doesn't seem any different than the switch coming into contact in my mind.

As far as the codes, I dunno about the Festiva in particular but most computers need only a start attempt to store several codes. On motorcycles with EFI simply flipping the key on with a sensor unplugged is all it needs to store a "no signal from xxx sensor" code. I can swap computers back to see I suppose, but I'm trying to avoid that as my wiring harness is not going to survive much more of that. It takes multiple attempts and a lot of cussing to get one of them to disconnect. I think it's a moot point anyway, as I've probed the wire coming out of the ECA that goes to the CEL and I get nothing. I was just trying to confirm in another way that it isn't a malfunction of the light, but the ECA refusing to turn on the light.

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[1chrisapple]

by now id give in and swapped a whole harness and ecu from another car lol my hats off man u will get tho don't give up

[getnpsi]

I'd try hotwiring the car, i did suggest a push to start addon a page or so back too but again you need to keep trying the different lines to see where the break is to not power computer.

[burnt_toast]

lol, yeah my driveway has an incline, I wouldn't want to attempt a push start unless I had spark, injector pulse, and a CEL with key ON.

I'm down to hot wire the sucker. Hot wiring the RUN wire showed it is pretty easy to do with a length of wire. Only reason I didn't jump the IGNITION wire is the color codes messed me up. When I jumped the wire COLOR it was NOT the ignition wire and a fat white spark scared the crap out of me. It wasn't 'till after that that I noticed "IGI" molded into the plastic housing on a different wire. By then sun was going a little low and I was a little gun shy after getting that spark. I jus checked the fuses, tried to check for codes, and cleaned up for the day. Can't work on it today either. Gonna get some stuff up on Craigslist and ebay.
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[tooldude]

I only wanted to point out that you MAY have connections that are wrong because if you didn't put that switch in, someone else did and then you don't know what else may have been done. At the least, you have to be aware of what you are really connected to for testing, but obviously you can work with the different colors if you know where they really go. The question is whether your switch has contacts that are too burned/shorted together or if the plastic housing is damaged from the heat. The ignition switches are diagrammed the same in every schematic - OK, I broke off here and checked the '88 Component Check page, functions are exactly the same, all switches are the same(I sent that picture, did it come out OK?). What you have to do is make sure that the different colors go to the stock positions that I listed. (I say that because if the terminals can be removed and switched on the connector, as many can, it is possible that was done. But I think it's more likely it was just changed out.) JUST IN CASE you don't know this, the way to test that ignition switch is with the connectors off, one lead to the [W] input terminal; in each of the four switch positions check for the proper continuity or non-continuity on all the terminals before switching to the next position. This shows if there is a short between any terminals (internally inside the switch). BIG FAT SPARK ISSUE: As long as you mean you were connecting B+ directly to one of the wires that goes to the ignition switch, well that's what the switch itself does-not a problem. When you have enough amperage flowing, connecting wires/terminals can make sparks (jumper cables on a battery). Whether there was too much amperage, that is another question, but first check the ignition switch for shorts. BTW, back when you tripped the main relay with your test light, if I'm not mistaken that didn't hurt anything. I only saw that connecting to the main relay coil, cooling fan relay coil and timer/buzzer.

[burnt_toast]

I tested the switch for continuity already based on the procedure you sent me a scan of, page 149-6 (yes it came through).

Although the wires are different colors than the sheet, as you said it's the same switch, so I could just test a wire and, based on it's results, tell which wire is was. The only thing out of the ordinary is both the IGNITION and RUN wires stay closed in ON and START positions, and the RUN wire is supposed to open during starting. I don't think this would affect CEL operation though in ON. If I pull this thing apart I'm going to have to do it in the car I think; I do not see where the connector is as far up as I can reach in the main harness. At this point I'm more inclined to cut the wires and jump them, and just solder them back together when done. I'm sick of rebuilding every damn thing on the car bit by bit. The only thing saving it is the long history I have with it and relative low miles. I imagine my efforts now still being better than buying another Festy and replacing all the worn out parts from a previous owner's neglect. It's starting to look easier to replace tons of old parts as opposed to rebuilding this car's entire electrical system piece by piece.
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[tooldude]

This is so simple it's unbelieveable. The MECS system I could see is basic but it's even more rudimentary than I was thinking. You can see it by basic function of the parts. As usual, the CKP sensor is providing the timing signal for the injectors and also the SPOUT signal is generated from that, all handled internally in the ECA. The entire ignition system is just waiting to be fired by the SPOUT signal. The fuel pump is switched in the VAF. I don't see that there could be any special programming for startup, just basic signal input. It's so easy to see by looking at the whole system instead of piece by piece, being bogged down by what was tested and how. With B+ at the appropriate terminals and good grounds, a good signal from the CKP sensor, the ECA should be grounding the injectors. Logically, the ignition switch seems the most likely culprit and the one simple thing that could have changed from when the car was running before. However, there has to be no damage inflicted by that bulb test light, or any static electricity in handling. I have a bulb test light that I checked (no number on the bulb) - it's about 6.8 Ohms through the filament.

[1chrisapple]

im voting towards ignition switch to.but just really guessing.also seem like not getting power to those would be ignition switch.good luck if there the same on an aspire I could send u one for 10 and shipping