What is the best thing to use in a Manual Festiva Transaxle?

[sc72]

When I used the ATF in our Festiva Trans I did notice that the fluid as it came out looked like it had streaks of sillver or bearing particulate when drained out.

I now use the 20/50 bike oil, when oil is drained, the fluid no longer has bearing particulate streaks, the car shifts good in the winter and works good all around.

[bhearts]

When I used the ATF in our Festiva Trans I did notice that the fluid as it came out looked like it had streaks of sillver or bearing particulate when drained out.

I now use the 20/50 bike oil, when oil is drained, the fluid no longer has bearing particulate streaks, the car shifts good in the winter and works good all around.

I've heard that syncromesh eats the metal up a bit also.

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[ryanprins13]

I'll offer some comments as a guy that does engineering on drive train components for OEMs.

I would put ATF in the trans first and then maybe the motorcycle oil. I wouldn't use anything over a 20w50 because it'll either make it shift really hard in the winter or run to hot in the summer.

ATF is actually a pretty interesting fuild because it has to work with clutches and gears and be thin enough to be easily pumped. Clutches need friction modifiers to help them stop slipping and lock. Basically as an auto trans shifts the clutches start with a high delta speed and reduce it until its zero. To help them do this friction modifiers in the oil increase the shear strength of the oil to be able to support the torque transfer to get the delta speed to zero. Without the friction modifiers the apply pressures would need to be much higher and the clutches much bigger (think manual transmission clutch). The planetary gears in the transmission need a fluid that has a high film strength to prevent metal to metal contact. Both of these make the fluid more difficult to pump so there is a very delicate balancing act. This is why when GM first released their Dexron 2 oil spec in the 70s the name became the standard for ATF. It was the first really controlled ATF fluid that was used by an OEM, Ford had type A and then type F I think and now they use Mercon, GM still uses Dexron 6 and Chrysler uses ATF+4. These are fluid blends that are unique to each OEM to this day.

This all effects manual transmissions because in the 80s as manuals were being phased out the OEMs didn't want to stock and track different types of oil. The autos had to use ATF so they started putting it in the manuals as well. It is designed to work with gears so it's not going to hurt the manual trans. Some transmissions may have had some small updates to the gear geometries but most were just switched over. After ATF was pretty much standardized in manuals things like fiber line syncros started popping up that only really work with ATF. Manual transmissions after about 1985 were basically designed and developed knowing that they would be filled with ATF and I don't know of any car transmissions from that time to now that don't spec ATF as the fuild. Some truck manuals (mostly NV stuff) were still using a gear oil but that was due to higher loads of the truck applications requiring higher film strength.

Gear oils 70w90s etc. are really for ring and pinions. The contact stress is extremely high in a ring and pinion system and you need a lot of film thickness which results in very high shearing heat. Using gear oil in a transmission without the correct clearances for the oil will result in a transmission that runs very hot and has high parasitic loses. The old manual transmissions that used gear oil have different tolerances to allow the thicker oil to work.

edit: I forgot to talk about oil distribution. most manual transmissions relay on oil splash (as in the have no pump) to make sure everything that needs oil gets it. Oil splash is heavily effected by viscosity. Thicker oils may not be able to get into critical areas like the thinner oils can. For anyone that has had the inspection cover of a G series transmission there is a catch pocket and feed tube to feed oil into the mainshaft of that trans to lubricate the gear bores. It's pretty easy to tell that ATF will flow through that feed tube faster than a 85w90.

Thanks for posting that. Its almost funny having arguments with farmers trying to tell them that the reason their gearboxes/transmissions.. Are so hot and/or lighting fires is that they bought the thickest stuff they could find and then overfilled it. most are convinced thicker is always better and some people think more is better.
But my wifes 02ish kia spectra called for 75w90 for the trans and most honda/acuras call for honda MTF. I think my brothers MR2 askes for something other than atf but im not sure.
2 things are important in oils- viscosity and additive package. Its the additive package for atf that makes it work well, same with the 20w50 even though they are very different viscosities. 20w50 is made to be very shear stable because of its purpose, same with any oil that lubes gears and the engjne. But the motorbike i used to have like that called for the oil to be changed every 1000km still because it shears out of range quick. Honda mtf shears quite quickly, syncromesh is better according to uoa's.
A thought about seeing particles in atf- if you dont look real close at each you could be mislead by the atf being a light colour and transparent compared to a dark engine oil. Its easier to see particles shining because its translucent. Not saying it doesnt let more wear happen- thats quite possible. The racing oil has an additive package more suited to manual trans plus its thicker. If your actually racing hard in arizona with a turbo car a lot more heat is transferred to the transmission directly from the engine, from the hotter exhaust and turbo, and from more heat being shed directly in front of it by the radiator. Perhaps even heat is transferred up the driveshafts by the brakes. Always revving high means your input shaft is spinning much faster than normal. All that heats up the fluid and thinns it out. I would bet that the 20w50 in any higher hp turbo festiva transmission after 20-30 minutes of hard track racing is actually thinner than the atf in my transmission after driving an hour to work or even towing a small trailer an hour. If you raced like that with atf it would become way too thin to protect properly i theorize. You would have to use an IR thermometer on the trans after racing to find out. Mine only gets to 150f after 2 hours of very very hard (for it) towing on the second hottest day this summer.

On a daily driven festiva the added drag of heavier oil will turn some of your horsepower to heat rather than foreward motion. Fluid drag can get very significant at cold temperatures. That 75w90 or most heavy gear oil barely pours in -30c. You almost have to scoop it out of the bottle. Its not really doing anything to help you then.

[skeeters_keeper]

...
ATF is actually a pretty interesting fuild because it has to work with clutches and gears and be thin enough to be easily pumped.

Remember, so does motorcycle oil (in a lot of bikes). Same oil is running through the engine, wet clutch, and unit trans.

I've run Syncromesh and have been pleased with it. I think either Syncromesh or motorcycle oil are going to be your "top two" choices.

[navdoc101]

I use Royal Purple MAX ATF.
Its made to be used in MT's

[drddan]

My F-150 had Mazda 5 speed in it and it was recommended to use ATF as does all the festivas. It according to the manual
It is really about keeping the gears cool transmission fluid is a lubricant better gas mileage with the ATF

[sc72]

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Quote Originally Posted by sc72 View Post

When I used the ATF in our Festiva Trans I did notice that the fluid as it came out looked like it had streaks of sillver or bearing particulate when drained out.

I now use the 20/50 bike oil, when oil is drained, the fluid no longer has bearing particulate streaks, the car shifts good in the winter and works good all around.

I've heard that syncromesh eats the metal up a bit also.

bhearts, I do not have any experience with synchromesh oils but I am quite happy with the bike oil and till something better comes along or somebody shows me their oil is better, the bike oil is what I will be using.

[fezzy]

Very good topic, because I am not comfortable with the all-round ATF in both manual and auto transmissions.
Posted before it is noted the 20/50 motor bike oil. This is exactly the info I'm looking for to.
But to take it one step further, into the nitty gritty of numbers, and this is where I myself am not too sure on, but below for the sake of numbers, not brands, ( but let's use "the best of the best range") but for the specification table, can we be sure on one very important part and that is the splashing around of oil so it lubricates where thick oil cannot get to. I have no experience with motor bikes, yet motor bike oil is mentioned, therefore below are just 2 tables of specifications for comparison reason only. Those of you who understand the numbers below, is it then OK to "jump over" and switch to a 20/50 motor cycle oil and not have to use ATF in a manual transmission, just because the manufacturer/s is the root cause of going minimal for the sake of profit and convenience at our expence ?

http://ulx110.com.au/motorcycle-oil/v-twin-20w50/

Typical Specifications: V-Twin 20W50
API Gravity 28.9
Viscosity cSt @ 40C: 190
Viscosity cSt @ 100C: 21.6
Viscosity Index: 139
Pour Point C: -42
Flash Point C: 196
Sulphated Ash, WT%: 1.00

-------------------------------------- comparison specs between bike oil and ATF

http://pds.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...hetic_ATF.aspx
Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF
Viscosity, cSt (ASTM D445)
@ 40 ºC 36.3
@ 100 ºC 7.4
Viscosity Index 176
Brookfield Viscosity, cP (ASTM D2983)
@ -40º C 10,040
Pour Point, ºC (ASTM D97) -51
Flash Point, ºC (ASTM D92) 220
Density @15.6 ºC g/ml (ASTM D4052) 0.846
Color Red

[FestYboy]

But here's the thing: you can't mix the two, which means if there is ATF in there now, the trans needs a quick solvent flush before switching to an oil. Bot going the other direction is worse as the oil has a MUCH higher viscosity and "cling" factor... And oil doesn't break down as easily as ATF (typically).

[Team Lightning]

What do you recommend flushing the trans with?

[fezzy]

What do you recommend flushing the trans with?

A mix of Diesel and Kero was mentioned by a gearbox repairer I know of; he suggested to drain the transaxle, make 50/50 of mix kero and diesel, top it up, drive around the block then drain, re-fill with oil of your choice, drive around the block again, drain, and finally re-fill again.

I did this before coming to this forum but used the ATF as per booklet after the diesel/kero flush on jack stands cos car ain't registered yet, but may have to do again using the motor bike oil option when I get the posted specs. nutted out over the next few days.

It just did not sit right with me to use ATF in a manual gearbox, even though it's recommended by OEM.
Yet it cannot be thicker oil because as mentioned it has to splash around to lubricate.

[fezzy]

OK, I v'e gone full circle and back to where I started from, the oil I used after flushing the trans, that the penzoil dexron as recommended in the first place seems OK.
What I did was email some really really "in-the know" dudes who do serious car stuff and one of the links was to this mob

If you really want to know go to www.lubrizol.com. They make every additive for the oil industry and are the bible for information on lubrication products.

the other reply was

manual trans fluid called MTF I think Penrite might make MTF I know redline do. We do not make trans fluids only motor and gear oil because it's a whole different set of additives.

That is how I got back to where I started from, Penrite and read more of the info within those pages.

The jury is still for me as far as motor bike oil after reading the info and why it now makes sense, sort of.

I have not yet looked into redline's specifics as per this page

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=9

[sketchman]

The thing you'll find is that those "in the know" guys have their opinions too.

Guys say ATF works fine, but I've seen it allow sheared diff pins and shattered cases many times from not holding up under hard use situations. Other guys say gear oil, but I've used it, and personally I hate it in the winter. Then there's the moto oil, which I've never tried but makes sense. And finally what I was told by another "in the know" guy, the 0W-40 from Mobil 1, which I've used for a while now in my Festiva and before in a Neon.

Me, I would stick anything in there that shifts nice and is not ATF, because there are lots of opinions even "in the know", and I hate ATF. lol

[fezzy]

The "in the know" guys did not give me an opinion, they gave me links to motor oil manufacturers.
I posted those links after reading the information in there. Perhaps you ought to do some reading and contacting rather than sit back and form an opinion of other's opinion's opinions.
It is well posted that I'm trying to post actual facts.
Further more, if one is racing the gearbox, then sure something will give. Don't expect ATF to offer Formula 1 racing car results on a 1.3.
If you are racing ya car, then dare I say, my o.p.i.n.i.o.nnnn would be to seek out an oil to handle the stress !

So, we need 2 categories for this question
#1. Normal-Lead Foot driving use
and
#2. WOT use.

[sketchman]

lol Well that felt inflammatory.

I wasn't talking about racing. Hard use as in enjoying the car as an enthusiast would drive it on the street. My opinions are based on 10 years or so of first hand experience. Not sure where you got that I was basing it on other opinions.

I've had transmissions apart and seen the results of ATF on a diff pin, but then there are guys who run ATF and have no issues. See what I mean? And the guy who I mention based his "opinion" on an oil analysis of additive contents and again, hard use in his personal race cars.

Perhaps you think too much of reading things on the internet and too little of me 'sitting back and forming opinions'. Don't know. Don't care. I use what works. lol