B3 Turbo on a budget

[ruppenduro]

the oil feed is coming from the oil pressure sending unit.

the car is running awesome, boost is instant with this turbo.

[iceracerdude]

This is so cool. B3T for about $200! Even if it only adds maybe 10 to 20 hp it is "bolt-on" and you don't have to take the engine apart.

Looks like plumbing, too! But that's okay.

Now if this can be refined and directions assembled for us average wrenchers, with an average cost of around $300, that would be way cool.

Could also be done to a B6 or B8, methinks?

Karl

Here's the rough formula that's used to estimate hp gains when boosting:
Take your hp and divide it by 14.7 (the metric equivelant = 1 bar) which is the pressure of the air we breath or one atmosphere. I know, some of you thought it was something like zero.
So 62hp (the factory advertized hp of the stock 1.3) divided by "14.7" gives you the number 4.21
What this number represents is: 4.21 horsepower per pound of boost!
So if he's added 5 pounds of boost, he has in essence added about 21 additional horsepower to that engine.
When he's at 5 pounds of boost he's at about 83 hp! Ask him if 83 hp feels surprising.

Additionally, if you are able to double the pressure of atmosphere (14.7 psi) (or one full bar metric) entering your engine, then effectively, you double it's "na" hp rating.
Obviously when adding that volume of air, you need to match the engines equivelant need for the fuel ratio that goes with that air...along with other very important considerations.
Never forget these two things: first is that this is a science that demands respect and precision. Second: forget that and failure is always an option.

[zoom zoom]

Overall, was it worth it? I mean really..is it that much faster? Whats the gas mileage look like?

Keep us posted, I want to see how long that engine will hold up.

[blitzbuggy]

who cares about gas milage? its a festiva!!, it shouldnt really suffer its onlly 5 lbs of boost, its like a stand alone turbo system relying on mechanics, like the old turbo trans ams, my only concern is running it lean at wot, i would do a plug chop asap on that. other than that, Good on you man!! i was thinking somthing simmilar.

[91_festy_Gl]

Not sure if 5psi is enough to make that flex pipe expand under boost but you might upgrade to hard pipe later and feel more of a punch. I believe she will hold up just fine, and if not just drop another B3 in there and experiment more! Very nice, I may have to attempt this now!

[Safety Guy]

So a 5 psi boosted B3 is about like a B6 swap.

I'm thinking though that if you stay off the accelerator pedal, you can maximize MPGs while still having some good old power when you want it.

Using that "turbo formula," a B6 should increase to about 109 hp with 5 psi of boost.

This sounds really neat. Even a four psi shot of boost would give over 100 hp. Wouldn't decreasing boost make it "safer" and increase longevity? (Not only of the engine but also the stock transaxle.)

In other words, for an engine that is already healthy, spending another $300 or thereabouts for a cheap turbo system should be very cost effective.

Lucking onto a decent turbo unit for a good price would make things even better.

I would think the main beauty of this cheap setup, kept at low boost, is that you can have more power without having to figure out how to balance the fuel delivery and timing/detonation problems inherent in a higher boost system. All for minimal cost!

Am I right?

Karl

[iceracerdude]

So a 5 psi boosted B3 is about like a B6 swap.

Right, but with a lot more plumbing and cost if done correctly. Don't forget, he hasn't optimized his fuel/air mixture, he's just letting the exsisting ecu tell the exsisting fuel injectors what to do. Which if fine at the 5 psi level by the way.

I'm thinking though that if you stay off the accelerator pedal, you can maximize MPGs while still having some good old power when you want it.

Also correct, that's what the American auto industry is finally getting around to doing these days. The Nissan juke for example has a small 4 banger with a turbo that puts out around the same horsepower as my wifes larger engined (2.5 liter) Rogue!

Using that "turbo formula," a B6 should increase to about 109 hp with 5 psi of boost.

This sounds really neat. Even a four psi shot of boost would give over 100 hp. Wouldn't decreasing boost make it "safer" and increase longevity? (Not only of the engine but also the stock transaxle.)

In other words, for an engine that is already healthy, spending another $300 or thereabouts for a cheap turbo system should be very cost effective.

Lucking onto a decent turbo unit for a good price would make things even better.

I would think the main beauty of this cheap setup, kept at low boost, is that you can have more power without having to figure out how to balance the fuel delivery and timing/detonation problems inherent in a higher boost system. All for minimal cost!

Am I right?

Karl

Adding turbo is always pricy, you can never use the phrase "cheap setup" and cost "effective" in the same paragraph with the word turbo, too cheap means failure, WAY too cheap mean epic failure.
I don't know who said this, or even if I'm writing it correctly, but it went something like this:
"We can make it fast, cheap, and reliable...pick any two!"
That's more than a quote to me, it's kind of a rule I don't try and break.

[Safety Guy]

So what about a 4 psi small turbo (assuming good quality turbocharger) done like this with no intercooler? Would the stock B6 injectors and VAF hold up for normal driving (not racing)?

Would a small intercooler help longevity?

Parts would be collected through time, taking advantage of ebay and Craigslist "deals" (good quality stuff that people NEED to sell NOW).

Quick response, additional power (98 to 104 hp B6 at 3 to 4 psi boost), good MPGs when not flogging it, and all under $400?

A 103hp stock B8 swap (to a currently B6 car) would cost about as much (installing new WP, timing belt, gaskets and seals, etc.) and get slightly worse MPGs.

What am I not understanding?

Karl

[zoom zoom]

I'd like to see dyno reports and some gas mileage readings on this lol.. if iceracer is right, and iceracer is generally usually, well.. always, right, that's an 80 horse motor with a 100 ftlb of torque.

Overall tho, it does seem like a cost effective way of getting more bang for your buck as far as hp goes, i mean your talking hundreds v potentially thousands...without the hassle and headache of swapping motors/ecu's/harnesses/custom mounts n crossmembers/mix n match axels.......

Really I think it's a very interesting idea, if I can find a used turbo for cheap I might even do this myself. At 200k miles it's anybodys guess how much longer the engines gonna hold up anyway lol..

[ruppenduro]

Thanks for the response guys.

The car is still running great, although its not registered so I just run it up and down the street. I'll be driving it daily soon.

The car honestly feels like it must have 100hp, it really made all the difference making this car real fun. The power, plus the feel of boost and the cool turbo sounds made this really worth the effort in my opinion. I have 2 other b3's sitting here in case, but I think this one is going to hold just fine. Sure a b8 might have the same power, but its just not as cool. Its a nice simple set up, and I had fun building it.

[lanemeyer14]

Loving your work man! This is the kind of stuff I'd put together if I knew anything about it!

[91_festy_Gl]

If you had a way to monitor the air fuel ratio, you could play with the boost alittle and see what happens. I wonder if she would hold 7psi?

[Safety Guy]

"I wonder if she would hold 7psi?"

Let's not get too excited now! You won't be the one pulling the blown engine and putting in the new one!

I like the idea of "bolting on" some real horsepower that won't cost a fortune and won't hurt the gas mileage too much.

Just think of doing this to a B8:

-stock B8: 103 hp
-3# boost: 124 hp
-4# boost: 131 hp
-5# boost: 138 hp

Run just four pounds of boost on a B8 and you have a rough approximation of a BP, but without the hassle of firewall clearance, extra wiring, etc. And you should get slightly better MPGs, too.

Again, it may not be this simple, and you do have to do some work, but if you already have a B6 or B8, you can add extra ponies without another engine swap, or serious engine work.

One key would be to be patient and slowly collect your expensive parts as you can get them for really good prices. For example, I just picked up four Honda VX wheels this week for $80.00. I thought I'd have to spend over $150 or $200 for some!

Patience is a virtue!

Karl

[ruppenduro]

a b8 turbo would be awesome, as long as you have enough clutch lol.

I found this clutch on ebay, but i'll wait and see how my oem handles the road before buying.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bahnhof-Stage-1-Performance-Race-Complete-Clutch-Kit-/160586629986?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AFestiva&hash=item2563b58362

I do think 7 psi is feasable, but its really pushing the limits on stock fueling. I've run 8psi on a few nissan sr20's with non turbo ecu's/stock injectors.

[iceracerdude]

What am I not understanding?

Karl

No, you've got it, I just think you don't fully realize all of the extra stuff that's added to the installation of this.
As far as the question "what will 7 psi do to that engine" I know what it will do because I run 10 psi against the stock
(but new) pistons, rings, and rods in my B6, no problem.
I've also had all that stuff cyro treated by 300 Below in Illinois, but had a chance to see the affect on all stock parts,
and it all held together fine for me.

Not to thread jack but, Seems as though a lot of you could be interested if I made up some inexpensive turbo manifolds for your B3's and B6's?
What I can do is pick up a couple of new Aspire manifolds and have 2 types of flanges made, a T-25 type, and a KO3 type. New because
although "used" donor manifolds would certainly be less expensive, you'd have no way of knowing if any cracks are forming and/or how much longer you
could expect it to last. Both of these size turbos (t-25/28, and KO3's) are inexpensive and are readily available new, used, and of course in their
knock off form on ebay all day long.
I'll fab up these two different unit's against a block I've got to get an Idea of how much they'll cost to produce, and then get pictures up as soon
as they're done with projected pricing.