bleeding brakes help needed

[watermellon]

HI , I've got a 93 festiva with a leaky master brake cylinder. When the resevoir got low i would add some dot 3 fluid and everything would be fine for a while. I hadn't driven the car for a couple of weeks and decided to take it for a run tonight. I tried the breaks and nothing - the pedal went straight to the floor. I popped the hood and checked the resevoir and it was empty. I filled it up and tried the brakes again... nothing. I'm not sure but is the reason my brake pedal goes to the floor is that air got into the line? If so, will bleeding the brakes fix the problem?


I've got a new master brake cylinder now and plan to install it this weekend. I've never done this before and would greatly appreciate some guidance. And the bleeding, does that go hand in hand with installing the master cylinder? I need help bleeding too if its needed. thanks.

[walth]

yes, you have air in the brake line(s).

I wouldn't waste anymore fluid bleeding the brakes if your current master is leaking. I'm so sick of brakes right now. You'll have to do it twice if you bleed it now and then replace it...and then get more air in the system and then have to bleed it all again.

bench bleeding is one way of speeding up the bleeding process but can be a pain if you aren't methodical enough with getting the lines into the master. I don't generally mess with it. I just install the master, fill it up, and you can try tapping on it to knock free air that's down inside. Then proceed with normal bleeding. two man bleeding is the best but a one-man bleeder can be picked up from harbor freight for like 4-5 bucks. (advance has them for like 12+)

keep us posted and please don't drive until you fix that

[jjk1224]

Your sure the master cylinder is the only place it is leaking? I would check your wheel cylinders and calipers just to make sure you don't have other problems.

[WmWatt]

Look under the car for brake fluid all along the lines too. The brakes are divided in two at the firewall so if there is a leak in one pair of wheels the other pair will still work. If you have no brakes at all both pairs are not working. That would certainly suggest the master cylinder. Otherwise you have two leaks somewhere else. It's a good idea to keep the hand brake in good working condition in case you loose the footbrake as you have. If you don't have the Haynes manual do a search of the Internet on replacing a brake master cyclinder. There will probably be photos. It's pretty generic.

[walth]

lol long day yesterday. good call guys. look for a big dark wet spot too or little dark spots. unless you park on grass or something. may help you spot leaks better. or have someone push on the brake while you look under the car

[georgeb]

If it's running out the back of the m/c and down the booster your m/c is toast.

[walth]

watermellon you have the new master but is it a festiva one? Did you want to upgrade to an aspire master?

[watermellon]

I checked the calipers and cylinders and there aren't any leaks. After I install the mc my biggest concern is loosening the bleeding screws. What do I do if they won't loosen or if one breaks? Are there some precautions I should be taking when I attempt to loosen them? And when I do loosen them, how many turns do I turn them... 1/2, full, 2, or three turns?
Also when the fluid is flowing down the clear tube into a jar, does the jar have to be filled with brake fluid or can it be filled with water? I'm assuming it has to be brake fluid just in case some gets sucked into the system. Or is that impossible?

As for whether the mc is a festiva or an aspire one, it's a festiva one.

[watermellon]

oh yeah, when I'm bleeding the brakes do the wheels have to come off or can it be done with them on?

[zoom zoom]

It's best if you have an assistant, do the front right (pass side) rear right, rear left, front left in that order. (Thats the order i did my mazda anyway) make sure you use some pb blaster, wd40, or liquid wrench on the bleeder valves and break them all loose before you start, a wire brush won't hurt anything if you have one handy. i used a small (1/4" ratchet) with a deep well socket on the valves, before you try to break it loose, tap the handle of the ratchet in the direction to tighten (helps to unseize the valves) then unscrew them a couple turns to make sure they aren't going to seize during the process.

it's best to take the tires off so you have room to work.

Put some brake fluid in a container (yes needs to be brake fluid, it may or may not get sucked back thru the tube if your not fast enough at tightening the valves) and have a hose to fit over the bleeder valves. Stick one end on the valve, the other in the container with the fluid. Have someone push and hold the brake and while the petal is down you loosen up the valve about 1/2 turn or so, until you see juices and air bubbles flowing, as soon as the flow starts to slow, tighten the bleeder valve, then have your assistant release the brake petal. Repeat this step as many times as needed with each wheel to make sure there is absolutely NO air left in the system, also check the resovoir every few minutes to make sure it's not low, if it drops too low you might end up rebleeding it all again. I ended up flushing out some brown gunk stuff during the process so it took a big container and a smaller container of brake fluid to get all 4 wheels bled out. Just make sure you get the air out, your life may depend on it, and God help me if this isn't the right way to do it lol. Ive put about 600 miles on my brakes since bleeding them and it still pumps like a new car.


If you look up under the driver side door area, you should see a couple metal lines running to the back of the car, 2 of these are brake lines, make absolutely sure there aren't any holes or bad rust spots (which could be a pinhole in disguise) you need to repair any of that stuff before you do this or it will all be for nothing.

[WmWatt]

I do it myself using the gravity method. Fill the master cyclinder, loosen the bleeder nipple on the wheel, and wait. If nothing happens after a few minutes suck on the bleeder nipple to create some vaccum to get it started. There is a photo of the device I use make from a soft drink can around photo #70 in http://www.photobucket.com/festiva-frontwheel

If the bleeder nipple won't turn don't force it. They break easily. A new caliper will cost $40 in this area. Try penetrating oil and a wire brush. If they still don't turn heat with a propane torch for 60 seconds and try again. You many need to put a piece of sheet metal behind the flame to protect rubber parts. After heating don't keep turning if it stops. It may cool and freeze up again. Reheat and try again repeatedly. Early in the above photos are some of removing a rusted bleeder nipple using heat.

[watermellon]

thanks for all the info zoom zoom. One question though. Roughly how many times do you need to do the tightening and loosening of the bleeder screw to get rid of the bubbles. I understand that the farther the wheel cylinder is away from the mc the more times it will take; but, I have no idea how many I should do. I watched a few clips on youtube but they didn't really explain much. If i do it once or twice and no bubbles appear is that enough?

[georgeb]

When you change the m/c there is some trapped air in the lines near the m/c fittings that takes a while to travel to the bleeder valve. It's a good time to flush all the old brake fluid out. I hook a piece of clear nylon tubing to the farthest open bleeder. The tubing can be in a jar or just pointed upward (messy). Slowly work the pedal until clean fluid appears with no bubbles. Close the valve and have someone hold the pedal tightly while you briefly crack open the valve. I heard that bubbles attach themseves to the walls of the rough caliper and this dislodges them. Repeat for other wheels. Won't take as long or as much fluid as first wheel.

[Pgh5spd]

I always used to do it like Zoom, but last time, not having anyone around to help, I did it like Wm. Before starting, spray some PB Blaster or WD40, or just shoot some ATF on the fitting. Wait a day if you can. Use a 1/4" drive socket for loosening. Knock on wood, but I've never snapped one, and I live in the rustbelt. Anyway, just loosen the fittings one at a time and let the fluid flow. Work slowly and make sure the reservoir doesn't go dry. If a line won't flow, just pressing the pedal gently and releasing it slowly seemed get things moving. In the end, I had good pedal.

[zoom zoom]

as many times as it takes, there's no set # of times, but you have to be absolutely sure there's no more air bubbles in the system or it will cause brake failure. I probably overdid it with mine, but the car had sat for 3 years and I wanted to flush it good. better safe than sorry tho right?