won't turn over, ignition control unit?

[tedraortega]

until the new ignition gets here i wanted to test this one. the wires that come in on the little plastic plug.


i see little letters written beside a few of them but it didn't really correspond with the chart.


can you give me more information on what i need to do with the meter?
i typed in a, b, c, d, e ,f on my pic so i'll know what wire your talking about.

i did pull back the wire tape to see the color of the wires otherwise they all looked black.

[FestYboy]

ok, you'll need a good constant ground (A), and a topped off battery. take a voltage reading at the battery. each subsequent reading should be no lower than .3 vdc of the battery reading.

no means no voltage
yes means voltage between the subscribed letters.

[tedraortega]

my prelimary test just now they looked like they did have good readings. it was either nothing or a good number. some were on/off depending on what i was in (off, acc, on)

if this tests ok, then what? is it still the ignition? or is there something else? if i look inside the end of that plug with wires, it is just a slot that it fits into a post from the key cylinder. if the cylinder was bad it would just be a turn or not turn. so i don't see how that relates to this.

i am just amazed that it starts so easy with the remote. maybe we should just reinstall the push button! LOL

i'll have to print out the chart tomorrow so i can have it with me and confirm results again

[BigElCat]

Hi Tedra.

Let me start by saying that I want to help you, if I can.

Didn't you say that the 'brown block' (where the FLFs go) is burned up? The middle slot? If so, you should replace it first.

Having the ignition key tumbler out of the steering column will help you diagnose the wiring.

Okay, you by-passed the temporary starter push button. Did the motor 'turn over' and not start? Or did it not 'turn over'?

Your pictures aren't showing up on my computer. They would sure help.

You're right about the key tumbler not being the actual electrical problem.

I guess your hubby is doing his own thing. Once the FF.COM diagnostic team figures this out, you may just have to hand him a beer and set him down in a lawn chair to watch you fix the car:p

[tedraortega]

actually the wire end that was bad was from the socket on the next to the car. I just moved it to the other side, outside the box. i put the fuse in so it straddles one that was good inside the box and the other outside. both connections are good and a fuse is between the two wires. i'll still look this weekend for another box.

i checked the wiring behind the key tumbler and i when we turn the key it doesn't turn over. the lights still light up on the dash. just nothing but the relay click. I can only get it to start with the remote.

yes, hubby is sleeping/working. night shift / 12 hour days, 7 days a week. we see each other for about 15 minutes before i leave for work everyday. i am keeping him in the loop. :-) He wanted to take it to a mechanic but i still think I can fix it. I think it will be something simple when i find it.

That same mechanic couldn't figure out another car and had it for 2 weeks and charged us for diagnostic time according to the book. he is still in school so i don't have much faith in him especially on a car that he is probably not familiar with.

the other mechanic down the street 20+ years experience, was NO help at all.

i read everything i can online about whatever it is. i am not afraid to try things nor learn something new.

and yes, his drink is BUDLIGHT and I sure hope i can find this problem. Maybe with everyones help we will.

[tedraortega]

oh.. and after all this he wants to pay someone to rewire the entire car. anyone got an idea how much that might cost? i am trying to talk him out of it.

[Pu241]

oh.. and after all this he wants to pay someone to rewire the entire car. anyone got an idea how much that might cost? i am trying to talk him out of it.

No, not cost effective.
The problem is likely in the harness somewhere, but it is much easier to work with what you have and a good set of diagrams, than simply replacing the engine harness.
Seriously, paying to replace this will cost more than the vehicle is worth.

[tedraortega]

just out of curiosity, could this be a crank position sensor? i had one go out on a 96 jeep cherokee and if i remember correctly it was the same symptom. mechanic tried to tell me it was the fuel pump inside the gas tank. i replaced the $70 part and it took me ALL day it was a real pain in the but to reach but it worked like a charm.

so lets say we do take it to a mechanic and he thinks it is this or that part and it turns out to be something else. we can't take the part back and he was wrong. costing us more money than necessary.

maybe it isn't that since it starts with the remote but thought i would ask. just throwing it out there.

[georgeb]

I'm looking at the starting circuit in my manual and the only things between the ign sw and the starter motor is the wiring and the clutch interlock switch. That sw is above the clutch pedal. Should have a black/blue wire (hot) and black/red (load). You might be able to jump the connector to eliminate it as a culprit. I would wait and try the new ign sw first.

[DON SVO]

just out of curiosity, could this be a crank position sensor? i had one go out on a 96 jeep cherokee and if i remember correctly it was the same symptom. mechanic tried to tell me it was the fuel pump inside the gas tank. i replaced the $70 part and it took me ALL day it was a real pain in the but to reach but it worked like a charm.

so lets say we do take it to a mechanic and he thinks it is this or that part and it turns out to be something else. we can't take the part back and he was wrong. costing us more money than necessary.

maybe it isn't that since it starts with the remote but thought i would ask. just throwing it out there.

NO, if the CPS was bad it wouldn't start at all.

So the car won't start or turn over from the key, but it will start/turn over from the push button switch. That tells me that everything from the Starter Solenoid and out is good. somehow the circuit is not getting an input from the key. You may have voltage at the plug to the ignition switch, but when you check the wiring for continuity you need to be checking resistance in the circuit.

Get a long 10 gauge length of wire (10 feet minimum), and crimp alligator clips to the ends.



So using your diagram, we are going to test the switch. We need to verify that the switch is good before deciding that the wiring itself is compromised. The ignition switch completes a circuit when it is in the position you turn it to. Start, Run, Accessory and Off. It's just like a light switch, only for starting the car.

Disconnect the battery. Set your multimeter to 2,000 Ohms (the horseshoe shape). Turn the key to the 'ON' position... place one lead on the White wire and the other on the Black/Red wire (record the reading on the meter), then the Black/White wire (record the reading on the meter). you should have a resistance reading on the meter that is LESS than 1 Ohm (1,000 with the meter set to 2,000) in both settings. if the reading is less than 1,000, we check the Start function.

use the alligator clip wire to hook up to the White wire on the switch, and clip the other side onto the black multimeter lead. Turn the ignition to "RUN" (like starting the car), and place the red multimeter lead... with your left hand... on the Black/Blue wire (record the reading on the meter) and then the Black/White wire (record the reading on the meter). Now it should say "OL" or "OFL" when the switch is off, it should be LESS than 1,000 Ohms when you turn the key.

I'm betting the switch says "OL or "OFL" during one of these tests, likely the last one.

[WmWatt]

Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier. First thing I'd do is spray WD-40 or contact cleaner liberally into the iginition key hole and work it around in there with the ignition key. This has cleared up problems with my '89 twice.

[tedraortega]

ok. i tested the ignition and as far as i can tell it was ok. it read 800? or just under where it was at 1000.

so i proceeded on to the clutch engage switch test. it listed unplug the clutch switch and check for continuity across the terminals. it read zero. i engaged the clutch and still read zero. i want to make sure i did it right on the meter.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Voltage-Meter-10729W/14521542

George B. i still get no reading on black/blue or on black /red

how did you want to jump connector across to bypass? i tried a wire with a connector on each prong but it didn't change.

this is the meter i have

[georgeb]

If you connect the 2 sides of the connector with a paperclip or something and it still doesn't start with the switch then the clutch switch is not the problem.

[tedraortega]

should i go on to the neutral safety switch?? i am running out of things to check. LOL

[DON SVO]

ok. i tested the ignition and as far as i can tell it was ok. it read 800? or just under where it was at 1000.

so i proceeded on to the clutch engage switch test. it listed unplug the clutch switch and check for continuity across the terminals. it read zero. i engaged the clutch and still read zero. i want to make sure i did it right on the meter.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Voltage-Meter-10729W/14521542

George B. i still get no reading on black/blue or on black /red

how did you want to jump connector across to bypass? i tried a wire with a connector on each prong but it didn't change.

this is the meter i have

Was it ~800 in all settings?

Switches do one thing: connect a circuit. So jumping the switch (jumper wire across terminals) bypasses the switch.

If the switch shows no resistance in any position that means it's stuck closed. The car would start.

Jump it and report back!