Still No Spark

[shadetree]

Finger the vaf the pump will come on ! On don't push the clutch and try and start the pump will come on !

[Chobobulous]

Lol finger the vaf

[burnt_toast]

I cannot get the ECU wiring disconnected to save my life. The fuel pump does work. Shoving the stethoscope IN to the filler nozzle lets you hear the pump, but listening on the outside edge does not (one more example of why "just the tip" is not a good idea). So at least we know the pump is doing it's job on the fuel side. I'm still stuck trying to figure out what wire is a 12V constant for the EFI. I'll see if Autozone has a noid light for rent tomorrow. I have to switch gears though and work on something else tomorrow, but maybe at the end of the day I can check.
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[MTBOX]

You said it ran fine until you replaced the timing belt.I would check to see if you put the timing belt on corrrectly.

[crazyrog17]

Speaking of the vaf.. The car should turn over and run for a second - even if it's unplugged. Just don't try removing it by unscrewing the screws on the connector.

[burnt_toast]

If the timing belt was on incorrectly, it would still produce spark, just not at the right time. The VAF verified the fuel pump works, as did cranking and using a stethoscope to listen for the pump. The last thing now (in my mind) is to see if the injectors pulse, and that would really push me believe the ECM is fried. Even if the injectors are working though, there is still no spark, and it' not the coil, crank sensor, or ignition module (most likely, replaced it with a junkyard find), or distributor.

To the best of my knowledge, everything is there to make a spark, unless the ECU just doesn't care to tell the coil to fire. On some vehicles, there is also an Auto Shutdown Relay (ASD) that can fail. It's job is to keep the coil off in a "key on, not running" condition (listening to the radio in "ON" instead of "ACCESSORY" or after a wreck, etc). I see no mention of such a relay in the Festiva, so that ECM should tell the coil to fire if it's receiving a crank signal and airflow.

I kinda want to blow off what I need to do tomorrow and keep at this. I've let the thing sit 2 years now and I'm building some momentum. I love that car. I've sold it once and given it away once and it's come back to me both times now. Plus, it has new tires (and alternator, timing belt, and H2O pump) and I'm a cheapskate. I wanna get my money's worth
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[FestYboy]

the ECU doesn't tell the coil to fire, the ICM does (it's the ground for the coil, and when the ICM removes the ground, the field in the primary collapses onto the secondary and that's where you get your spark). the ECU just controls the timing curve.

[Zanzer]

I'll check for a constant 12v on the injectors though. I expected the multimeter would at least start jumping around and giving unstable readings if a pulse was going through. Unfortunately I do not have a noid light, just a standard test light and digital multimeter.
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That exactly what it does. I just checked (with a Fluke 63) my 93 the other night vs a car that's having an injector pulse issue. You'll basically see the numbers ramp up down a a very fast rate.

[tooldude]

I don't understand how you are so convinced your ignition module is good when you got it from a JY, it's the first thing I would suspect. The distributor on your car has a photo electric trigger (LED & transistor) not a hall-effect switch. That signal goes to the ECA [terminal 2E] & triggers the ignition module indirectly (how the advance curve is managed). The module is grounded by the computer [SPOUT signal-terminal G]. There is also a condensor across the coil that can cause a no-start (or should be). If you have 12.6 volts at the coil + and on the Y/B wire supplying the photo electrics (this one supplied off the main relay), then one of these four is bad, unless of course there is a connection/broken wire problem. Look under Repair, page 3, EFI distributor tester, posted by FB71, for a handy, simple tester. Maybe you just need to clean the photo optics.

[getnpsi]

If you have key on and no CEL and it cranks, it IS one of those fuse links on the shock tower. I replaced mine with long legs cartridges and the brittle plastic broke between the legs, so they were not making a good connection. the center one is master, that kills your auto seatbelts, cranking, dome light when its dead. I bet its the one closest to the engine. Try flipping them around or spraying some pb blaster in there and try. If that is what it is, you need to dissasemble and retin them like in the how-to. Wiggling will get you home but its not something you wanna rely on.

[tooldude]

By the way, the LED/phototransistor is a crankshaft position sensor not a camshaft position sensor - and also for engine speed. The CKP sensor is usually the trigger for injectors, so if you get no voltage to the injectors suspect that. If you get voltage at the injectors, suspect the ICM. Hopefully you have good voltage and ground for the ECA. There are 2 grounds that are near the computer, G200 is the ground used for the injectors. It's on the driver's side panel, has a plastic box shaped piece on the eyelet. G201 is just an eyelet, either on that side panel or the cowl toward the front. After all of this
is over, post what the problem was.

[burnt_toast]

Wow I woke up to a freakin' treasure trove of information! Thanks everyone. And yes, of course I will post the solution; I hate reading through a multi-page thread like this and having it just end. I'm going to have to read through all that again to figure it out; there's some info in there I have no knowledge of, and I still have to get the damned ECU unplugged to figure out which wire is which and where to test. I have a buddy coming over after work to spin the motor for me so I can more accurately perform some of these tests. I assume there was good contact when I tested for injection pulse at the injector wire, but I can't possibly know for sure without having someone else crank.

I'm not positive it's not the iggy module, I just don't want to buy two of everything; I already have two coils. The boneyard I go to only had one Festiva/323/Protoge/Aspire anyway, and there is no test I knew of to check the module. My understanding before is that the module may actually control firing, but the ECU has to receive signals from sensors to realize there is an attempt to start, then it tells the ignition module to do it's thing. Is that incorrect?

I'll check all this in the afternoon when my buddy gets over. On the fusible links; I don't know how they could be bad if they have continuity accross them? I cleaned them with a wire brush and contact cleaner, then took a file and contact cleaner to the posts in the fuse block. Perhaps the wires leading out of the fuse block? I can pull it off the tower and look in there I suppose; there was quite a bit of corrosion in the top half.

Okay, plenty to look at today. I'm going to have to read through all that again to figure it all out. Thanks to everyone posting so far, this is a huge help even though it's starting to dance all over the car. I was running out of ideas and now I have so many ideas I have to put them in a logical order before trying anything. Simply fantastic.
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[burnt_toast]

tooldude, I am lost on a couple things.

First, just to make sure, "ECA" is the computer/ECU/ECM etc??? That seems obvious but I want to verify.

Also:

The module is grounded by the computer [SPOUT signal-terminal G].

No idea what SPOUT means. I've not come across that term before or in the manual for this car. In general, I also do not know how to reference wire numbers of the ECU/ECA like "Terminal 2E" you mention. I assume once I get the damn thing unplugged I'll have a better idea, but usually I see connectors labelled with numbers only, working left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Is it "Plug 1, Plug 2" and the individual wires are lettered instead of numbered?

That signal goes to the ECA [terminal 2E] & triggers the ignition module indirectly (how the advance curve is managed)

You are right in the meat and potatoes of what I'm looking at here. The distributor is brand new so I do not suspect the photo-optic sensor used as a CKP, but I wanted to find the wire at the ECA/ECU that is receiving signal from the CKP, that way I know the computer is getting signal and should be trying to control the ICM (ignition control module). I'd love to do the checks you mention, soon as someone can explain what SPOUT is, as I am totally unfamiliar with the term.

There are 2 grounds that are near the computer, G200 is the ground used for the injectors. It's on the driver's side panel, has a plastic box shaped piece on the eyelet. G201 is just an eyelet, either on that side panel or the cowl toward the front.

Again, the numbering confuses me. Terminal 2E and then G200/G201 sounds like two different numbering systems for the same connectors to the computer? Please advise.

Okay. I'm heading out to take care of some other stuff in the garage; I'll pop back on in a couple hours before switching gears and going back to the Festiva.

Thanks again to all, even the lurkers,
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[drddan]

I'm not positive it's not the iggy module, I just don't want to buy two of everything-toast

You can have the ECM tested at auto part stores.

[burnt_toast]

"Tested?"

I thought they can only check for codes using the tool? Interfacing with it isn't necessarily going to test it's function, especially with the ECU removed from the car. Is there an auto parts store capable of that? It sounds like a highly specialized service.

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