Building the ultimate Festiva street suspension...

[mikemounlio]

Another quick note.
The 120lb front/105lb rear spring combo will provide a wide range of ride height adjustment. It will ride very comfortable on roads with pot holes and speed bumps. It is not harsh at all. On the track the chassis is balanced well and will provide a confidence inspiring experience. It's really hard to out drive this setup. I tried to spin the car by coming in too hot and the car just did what I asked without spinning or excessive push. It's one of the most well balanced vehicles I've ever driven. The biggest problem is my arms are very sore from the lack of supportive seats and the very slow steering ratio. A power steering rack upgrade and some race seats are a must.

A little motivation. The Festiva has the first version of this suspension setup. The tires on the festiva are worn to the cords, and the C6 Corvette is a dedicated track car being driven by a professional driver who wanted to see what lines were optimal for a light FWD car. I attempted to let Justin by towards the end, but the Corvette couldn't hold the corner speeds of the Festiva even after slowing way down. We were taking turn 3 (at the top of the long uphill straight) at over 110mph.

What motor setup did the festiva in the video have?

[Advancedynamix]

Stock B6t with stock tune. Overboost switch was removed. No intercooler, 14psi boost with water methanol injection.

Here is the build thread for that car

[mikemounlio]

Sorry I wasn't able to chime in sooner. I was at the track all weekend doing more development work on this exact topic.
Here is the quick break down on the ultimate low dollar street worthy track car.

Mk2 vw coilovers in the front. You can get a pair of the cheap ones that hottuning sells on ebay for under 200 dollars. They work better than the expensive bilstein 40mm ones I built years back. They are worth the money, and they are completely servicable, so (if you ever manage to blow them, which I haven't yet) you can rebuild them for less than 50 bucks.
You will want 120lb 12" front springs (1 9/16 diameter) on a car with stock engine placement. 150lb 12" springs with a forward mounted engine, possibly 175"lb fronts with a bp that's forward mounted.
Get all your springs and coilover sleeves from southwest speed. These guys are great and you can't beat the prices or service.
2002 Kia Rio strut mounts. Use 12mm cone seat lug nuts to center and hold the strut into the strut bearing.
On the rear, use kyb excel g rear shocks for a 1993 vw cabriolet with the small body bilstein coilover sleeves sold by Southwest speed. They are for 1 7/8 dia. Springs. The guys at SW Speed won't know what your trying to do, so just trust me on this. They sell parts for dirt track cars, not Festivas. Lol. The kyb rear shocks may require a bit of sanding to get the small body sleeves on, but they do fit.
Use 105lb 10" rear springs (1 7/8 diameter) for a gutted car that won't be used to carry much cargo. Use 120lbs 10" rear springs for car with interior and used to carry poeple or cargo, use 150lb 10" rear springs if you intend to tow, or your rear passengers are particularly healthy weight folks.
You'll need to slightly modify the rear shocks on the bottom mounts, and you'll need to source or make rear spring tops.

With this exact setup I have comfortably driven across country (the entire continent) and back. I have driven in dirt, mud, and rain. The car holds and rides much much better than stock. On the track my lap times are faster than fully track prepped Miatas on R compound tires, even though the Festiva was on 400 tread wear Chinese tires that only cost 50 bucks a tire shipped! (This was accomplished with a b6d swapped festiva with stock 5 speed in stock location, a b6t or bpt swapped festiva with forward mounted drivetrain will compete with exotic sports cars and full blown big bore race cars) The fesiva is the ultimate street worthy track toy.

This setup is dirt cheap and can turn the car into a corner pounding animal.

Other notes:
These cars love negative camber. I run 3.5 degrees negative all the way around,with zero toe. It improves stability, and reduces rolling resistance. It also drastically improves wet traction and corner control.
Try to keep as much weight forward as possible. The old 50/50 rule is not the hot setup on a light FWD car. Moving the engine forward is like waiving a magic wand. These cars are stable and comfortable up to 160mph with the right suspension setup and the engine moved forward. I routinely turn into corners at tripple digit speeds on the track in a festiva. Corner entry speeds are consistently faster than anything on the track.

If i could get mk2 front and mk1 rear coilovers and just respring them would that be a good setup? Someone else said some sellers will split the kits. Or is the rear setup that you posted just better?

I guess im asking why not just use mk1 rears?

[theastronaut]

Are the MK2 rear struts (GR-2 pn 343191) valved different than the MK1 Rabbit struts? I used MK1 KYB GR-2 rears (341007) and they seem a bit soft compared to the front MK2 Racelands. I know they don't need to be as stiff as the front since there's less weight in the rear but they still seem to be a little soft. Running 125/105 springs on a full weight b3 car. I might try 120 pound rear springs next. I also need to get taller bump stops all around.

[Advancedynamix]

If i could get mk2 front and mk1 rear coilovers and just respring them would that be a good setup? Someone else said some sellers will split the kits. Or is the rear setup that you posted just better?

I guess im asking why not just use mk1 rears?

The mk1 kyb shocks are valved perfectly, can be built cheaper, and weigh less than the mk1 threaded body coilovers. They also provide a lot more tire clearance than a large body coilover would provide. Tire clearance is big concern on a Festiva, as is weight over the rear axle.

[mikemounlio]

Perfect answer once again. Thanks man.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[Advancedynamix]

Are the MK2 rear struts (GR-2 pn 343191) valved different than the MK1 Rabbit struts? I used MK1 KYB GR-2 rears (341007) and they seem a bit soft compared to the front MK2 Racelands. I know they don't need to be as stiff as the front since there's less weight in the rear but they still seem to be a little soft. Running 125/105 springs on a full weight b3 car. I might try 120 pound rear springs next. I also need to get taller bump stops all around.

Yeah, bump stops are the key. I should have also mentioned that earlier. The ones I use are VW new beetle rear bump stop with the large section on the bottom cut off and then stacked on top of the black bump stop that comes with the KYB shocks.
The 105lb may be too soft for a fully dressed car though. Mine is stripped, but does have a stereo and custom door cards and false floor, so it's not that much different. I also carry a decent load from time to time in it without problems (100-200lbs.)

Mk2 rear struts are too long.

Valving requirements are drastically different from front to rear on these cars.
Ive actually found the rear VW mk1 shocks to be too stiff when new. They loosen up a bit after a few thousand miles. Be cautious on washboard dirt roads when these are new, I've spun quite drastically a couple of times (55+ mph.)
The 105lb 10" springs require a lot of preload, unless you want to slam the car, but the spring rate isn't what I'm after here. The rate of a spring is only one guideline in the performance of that spring. I've always wanted springs to come with a dynamic graph of their cherictaristics, so that a proper spring could be chosen the first or second try. However, the industry has dumbed it down to one number, which explains very little. With the proper preload, these 105lb springs are essentially 150lb springs, except with a slower rate rise than the 150lb springs. The rate rise of the 105lb 1 7/8" black magic springs is very close to optimal. When set up correctly (with the correct bump stops) this spring matches the valving of the kyb perfectly for the weight and dynamics of the fesiva chassis on street tires. I actually just tested this last saturday on a set of 165 55 14 Achilles Economist tires. I used to spin wildly off the track when pushing 9/10 on street rubber, but with this setup I drift very neutrally even with the tires shedding their treads like a wet dog shakes off water.
Shock length is just as important as valving and spring rate on the rear of a light FWD car. The shock length is what ultimately controls chassis attitude under hard cornering. These KYB mk1 shocks are the prefect length for a street setup in my opinion. They still offer enough travel and ground clearance to drive quickly down a dirt path, but hold the car well enough on the track to out corner race tire shod sports cars with ease.

[Advancedynamix]

Sorry if all this info is poorly organised or explained. There is a really long explanation for all of this that I'm trying to shorten as much as possible. We could go on for years about this stuff. Lol.

[mikemounlio]

Yeah, bump stops are the key. I should have also mentioned that earlier. The ones I use are VW new beetle rear bump stop with the large section on the bottom cut off and then stacked on top of the black bump stop that comes with the KYB shocks.
The 105lb may be too soft for a fully dressed car though. Mine is stripped, but does have a stereo and custom door cards and false floor, so it's not that much different. I also carry a decent load from time to time in it without problems (100-200lbs.)

Mk2 rear struts are too long.

Valving requirements are drastically different from front to rear on these cars.
Ive actually found the rear VW mk1 shocks to be too stiff when new. They loosen up a bit after a few thousand miles. Be cautious on washboard dirt roads when these are new, I've spun quite drastically a couple of times (55+ mph.)
The 105lb 10" springs require a lot of preload, unless you want to slam the car, but the spring rate isn't what I'm after here. The rate of a spring is only one guideline in the performance of that spring. I've always wanted springs to come with a dynamic graph of their cherictaristics, so that a proper spring could be chosen the first or second try. However, the industry has dumbed it down to one number, which explains very little. With the proper preload, these 105lb springs are essentially 150lb springs, except with a slower rate rise than the 150lb springs. The rate rise of the 105lb 1 7/8" black magic springs is very close to optimal. When set up correctly (with the correct bump stops) this spring matches the valving of the kyb perfectly for the weight and dynamics of the fesiva chassis on street tires. I actually just tested this last saturday on a set of 165 55 14 Achilles Economist tires. I used to spin wildly off the track when pushing 9/10 on street rubber, but with this setup I drift very neutrally even with the tires shedding their treads like a wet dog shakes off water.
Shock length is just as important as valving and spring rate on the rear of a light FWD car. The shock length is what ultimately controls chassis attitude under hard cornering. These KYB mk1 shocks are the prefect length for a street setup in my opinion. They still offer enough travel and ground clearance to drive quickly down a dirt path, but hold the car well enough on the track to out corner race tire shod sports cars with ease.

Can you please restate which bump stops to use on the setup you listed from above? I plan to purchase my entire suspension mods tomorrow. So a much info on your setup as you care to give out is greatly appreciated.

Guess i will start a list in a few minutes of what exactly i plan to buy.

[Advancedynamix]

Can you please restate which bump stops to use on the setup you listed from above? I plan to purchase my entire suspension mods tomorrow. So a much info on your setup as you care to give out is greatly appreciated.

Guess i will start a list in a few minutes of what exactly i plan to buy.

They are Volkswagen part number 1J0512131B
CLICK HERE FOR EBAY AUCTION

[mikemounlio]

advanceddynamix

Once i get a full list together would you mind looking it over and give me you thoughts?

[theastronaut]

Same bump stops on the front? I have an amp/sub and a couple speakers in the back, still has the rear seat. Spare tire and jack are removed though. i can only carry one passenger as is, with two the bumper mount flange in the fenderwell starts eating the tire.

[mikemounlio]

Am i missing something or is there a better place to buy the items? I am looking to just buy the suspension parts right now.

front struts from this kit http://www.ebay.com/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-V...9U~wDm&vxp=mtr

Springs for the front coilovers (2x) https://www.southwestspeed.com/?sec=view_part&id=66

02 kia strut mounts (2x) http://www.ebay.com/itm/Anchor-70498...1glpMg&vxp=mtr

rear struts (2x) http://www.shockwarehouse.com/site/p...FQyoaQodU4gINQ

coilover sleeve (2x) https://www.southwestspeed.com/?sec=view_part&id=1049

rear springs (2x) https://www.southwestspeed.com/?sec=view_part&id=23

bumpstops (2x or 1x) http://www.ebay.com/itm/151709646616

total of 596.98$ as of right now not including shipping. Might be able to get that even lower if ebay hottuning will sell just the front and not the entire kit.

[theastronaut]

Rockauto has the rear struts for 18.95 each, and the front strut mounts for about the same price as the ones you posted. Could combine shipping that way.

[mikemounlio]

The rockauto price of 18.95 is for one last strut. Normal price there is 31$ will have to check back later to see if it changes. Thanks for the advice.