The Festiva Advantage

[Advancedynamix]

Wedge, you seem to be a troll with a misunderstanding of suspension geometry and an extremely arrogant ignorance toward cars you've never seen. If any of your suspension claims are true I'd like proof (The ball joint spacer on a Macpherson strut is the only thing you've stated that was accurate.)
I've got nothing to prove here, and I'm not worried about convincing you of anything. At first you brought up great questions that a lot of people have. Now your just babbling like a drunk.

[TominMO]

Nor have I ever heard of any Festiva breaking 60 MPG at any speed let alone the speeds that you're suggesting.

Back when I was doing MPG testing with my stock Festy EFI 1.3 and 5-speed, and 155/80-13 tires, I got 62.5 MPG @ 45 MPH on the highway. Not practical, but wanted to see what numbers it would get with optimized RPM (~1800 IIRC) and low air resistance.

I seriously doubt the claims of God's car getting the MPG he is claiming at 75 MPH or any other speed. I suspect poor testing and fuel-measuring practices. Possibly it was running in a super-lean condition for some reason, but I would think that if it was that lean it would hardly run well at all.

One thing that would help, though, is testing it at higher altitude and with a stiff tailwind. That would help with the numbers, but not a real-world scenario, any more than 45 MPH on the hwy is.

In city-only testing, I got 50 MPG with hypermiling techniques.

[FestYboy]

Sorry, Tom, I forgot about that. But in my defense, the numbers you got were in a semi-controlled test environment, as you stated above.

Charlie, I don't think we have to resort to name-calling just yet.

My only concern is that Wedge has been a member for 2 years and with the claimed knowledge he says to have, having only posted 7 times and all within the last 10 days or so... Why hasn't he either called you out earlier, or dropped some knowledge bombs on us to benefit the community?

[reddragon]

My comments in red.


Here's a couple more of my favourite sayings:

"An untested life is worthless."
"You can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter."

Some people call the Festiva a turd (I don't). But it was designed as the cheapest possible grocery getter. Yes, you can make it a lot faster, faster than a lot of other cars. But at the end of the day it is still a turd and there are limits to what you can do with it.

At the end of the day a well polished turd will slide straight out with very little effort.

My stock '97 121 (aka festiva mini wagon) has had a few battles against my mates stock '97 civic. In a straight line they are very evenly matched, but the 121 is quicker through the corners.

The IPRA civic could have triple wishbones a dog box and kitty glitter. Pedro will still be the people's champion.

[Dragonhealer]

Man you got me laughing! " A well polished turd...."

The Mazda 121 was designed as a world class, cost effective transportation vehicle for less developed countries where pavement is usually only found in the cities. Look it up, or talk to the nice people at Mazda (Japan, marketing or engineering liaison). They will not admit borrowing the chassis size/shape from the MG turbo Metro, just coincidence.

And if I recall correctly, in its day, the MG turbo Metro was the quickest production car in the world, 0-100

[Advancedynamix]

Charlie, I don't think we have to resort to name-calling just yet.

My only concern is that Wedge has been a member for 2 years and with the claimed knowledge he says to have, having only posted 7 times and all within the last 10 days or so... Why hasn't he either called you out earlier, or dropped some knowledge bombs on us to benefit the community?

That's why I said he "seems to be". I'd like to know how he came to the assumption that all of the cars that I've had the opportunity to test in comparison to the festiva have been "track hacks".
He's intitled to his opinion, but cluttering a thread with ignorant and banter with no legitimate proof is what trolls do best.

[Dragonhealer]

Ok, but in defense he has taken the time to bring up counterpoints, devils advocate if you will, and from this we can examine and learn.

All I can say Wedge, is the next 4 years may settle some things!

PS I think "hack" in English refers to a vehicle, as opposed to American lexicon, choped up or butchered.

[Dragonhealer]

Just came across this: http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...x/ford/festiva
Not sure what to think, but snake oil is the first thing to come to mind.

Sounds like they recomend overclocking the ECU anyway, that will raise the rev limit by itself. Of course you have to adjust around the skewed maps then....

[Advancedynamix]

Ok, but in defense he has taken the time to bring up counterpoints, devils advocate if you will, and from this we can examine and learn.

All I can say Wedge, is the next 4 years may settle some things!

PS I think "hack" in English refers to a vehicle, as opposed to American lexicon, choped up or butchered.

I like the counterpoints, as I stated in my original entry into this debate. However, the point of the conversation is now being lost due to proclaimed "facts" with no actual data or proof. I do my part to offer proof, and be accountable for my claims. Discrediting what I've provided without a lick of proof is not a healthy opposition, it's trolling.

[Wedge]

Wedge im not trying to be a jerk here but what is your purpose here? Do you plan to mod a Festiva? Do you drive a Festiva? I do not know your story at all so im just asking about it.

Advancedynamix has has done a huge amount of work on these cars. The main goal from what i can tell is race car on a budget! He has done just that. The car ended up being very very good. Its hard for others to believe him because he talks so highly on the little old car. I for one always liked the idea of building a fast festiva so i put all my cards in his hand and did what he says. Once i got the first taste of the kool-aid i was hooked. Now i have a couple built Festivas. I would even say i have one of the fastest ones around. Not only are mine built with the motors but i have the suspension on them as well. I have it all on there. I have not raced it yet but i can say that just by driving it im a believer! Advancedynamix is not wrong. These cars are amazing. I dont know the race class you guys are talking about so i cant compare. I do know that for a street car its better then anything else i have ever drove or even rode in. Now as far as cars that meet a full on race spec i have no clue. I have never been in one.

A while ago I was given a free BFMR 323 GTX, an ex-rally car that had been wrapped around a tree but had a good B6T in it. I started looking for something to put the engine in and found the Festiva, which I now use as a daily driver, and for some, ahem, off-street drag racing.

Wedge, you seem to be a troll with a misunderstanding of suspension geometry and an extremely arrogant ignorance toward cars you've never seen. If any of your suspension claims are true I'd like proof (The ball joint spacer on a Macpherson strut is the only thing you've stated that was accurate.)
I've got nothing to prove here, and I'm not worried about convincing you of anything. At first you brought up great questions that a lot of people have. Now your just babbling like a drunk.

As far as "extreme arrogance towards cars you've never seen", well the same could be said of you. You claim you can build a race car that can beat the Cox Civic because after you saw a youtube video of it. Your "proof" is the various mildly tuned street cars you've built. There is an enormous gulf between the Festiva's you've built, and what you claim you can build. I just don't see how you can extrapolate the performance that far. In Australia some guys think winning in IPRA is easy, then they compare lap times from their "track day" cars to the real race cars and realise the uphill battle that they've got, especially when they have to comply with the rule book.

With regards to suspension geometry, I've asked you clarifying questions which you have refused to answer. You haven't pointed out where I am wrong, just called me names.

With regards to McPherson strut camber gain, it has been proven time and time again the double wishbone is superior, in both professional and amateur race championships. Another example is V8 Supercars. In the early 2000s the Holden Commodore, a car which has had macpherson struts on every single production model from 1978 to 2017, was allowed to run double wishbone front suspension in V8 Supercar competition. This was done in the interests of parity with it's competitor, the Ford Falcon which has always had wishbone suspension. After modifying the Commodore chassis to accept Falcon front suspension (exact same pickup points, control arms and upright) the mid-corner grip and corner speed magically improved....

Sorry, Tom, I forgot about that. But in my defense, the numbers you got were in a semi-controlled test environment, as you stated above.

Charlie, I don't think we have to resort to name-calling just yet.

My only concern is that Wedge has been a member for 2 years and with the claimed knowledge he says to have, having only posted 7 times and all within the last 10 days or so... Why hasn't he either called you out earlier, or dropped some knowledge bombs on us to benefit the community?

I joined the forum because I had a few specific questions, mainly about gearboxes, but didn't post anything because I found my answers by searching. I was browsing some build threads to see if I could pick up any good ideas when I saw someone suggesting a Festiva could be competitive in IPRA. That is so far from the mark that I had to comment. Having been involved in IPRA for many years (sometimes driver, built cars with others, now building my own car) AND owning a Festiva (B6T, G25MR, Adaptronic e420C, Group N cheater turbo, coilovers, 323 front brakes, 195/50/15 Falken Azenis on 15x6 wheels, dual brake masters with balance bar), I have given A LOT of thought as to whether a Festiva could make a viable IPRA car, and time and time again I have come up with a resounding no, not even close.

I like the counterpoints, as I stated in my original entry into this debate. However, the point of the conversation is now being lost due to proclaimed "facts" with no actual data or proof. I do my part to offer proof, and be accountable for my claims. Discrediting what I've provided without a lick of proof is not a healthy opposition, it's trolling.

You haven't proven anything. To be fair I haven't proven anything either, but I think my experience is more relevant to the topic at hand, the viability of a Festiva IPRA car. If you want to prove something, post a camber plot. Post a toe/bump steer plot while you're at it. And show us how you've calculated the Festiva roll centre to be 5 inches higher than your Porsche. Which you said in post #82 and I quoted in post #83 before you did your sneaky edits.

It's bad form for an Admin to be editing not only their own, but other board members posts to erase something that they said, which they later discovered to be blatantly wrong.

[mikemounlio]

AND owning a Festiva (B6T, G25MR, Adaptronic e420C, Group N cheater turbo, coilovers, 323 front brakes, 195/50/15 Falken Azenis on 15x6 wheels, dual brake masters with balance bar), I have given A LOT of thought as to whether a Festiva could make a viable IPRA car, and time and time again I have come up with a resounding no, not even close.

Please tell us more about your setup! What coilovers are you running (and spring weights)? What is Your camber and toe settings? I really want to compare the build you have done with the build that Advanced has done. Im wondering why he has fallen in love with the car yet you seem to not even like it. I have driven all kinds of cars and my festiva is by far setup better then any of them.

[reddragon]

What model Festiva is it Wedge? As there aren't very many WA festivas in Australia, and most of those are 4 door, so I'm assuming it's a second gen aka aspire?

And what part of Oz are you in? I wouldn't mind checking it out if you aren't too far away.

[chrisofna]

I would like to see this car you had Wedge. It would definitely aide in the research and development of these cars trying to make them out-handle everything in the short track.

[Advancedynamix]

Wedge, your correct that I edited my posts due to misinformation. My head got flipped around in the heat of this discussion. I edit things like that out to reduce the confusion of the people reading the information. I'll freely admit that I don't have a full understanding of everything that is suspension geometry, and I often make mistakes. A lot of the people reading these posts learn from what I've written. When I know I've botched a post, I try to correct it (as I often do for any forum member who wants to correct something erranious that they've posted). The details I changed didn't affect the points I was trying to make.
My Cayman has closer to a 2" HIGHER
roll center than my Festiva when both cars are set at track appropriate height. This is a rough guess, as I've had neither car on a rack to check that. The important part is not in the details of the exact measure or in the terminology of the geometry of the chassis. The important part is that the Festiva chassis works better than the 987.1 chassis with similar mods and a lower HP/Wt ratio. You had commented that we were mistaking good handling for a high power to weight ratio. Focus on my mistakes all you want, but I know what I've felt and seen at the track, and many others have seen it too.

So the question I have, is what are you trying to prove to me? Telling me that this small displacement touring class has a faster group of cars than any car that I've possibly ever compared a Festiva to is a bold statement. Maybe I'm not reading your words right. I keep telling you that the car I would build would not be built to those rules, nor would I ever build a car for myself to compete in any production based class. You seem to be stuck on the idea that I'm comparing my street car, to a fully prepped, championship leading IPRA cars. I have never claimed that!
As far as being able to build a car that is faster than the Cox Civic, well I'm pretty sure I've exceeded that already (again, not a IPRA class legal car).
I have submitted proof that a Festiva can out handle cars with much higher levels or prep, higher HP/Wt ratios and better drivers. You've continuously attempted to discredit that proof by making out of context statements about those cars not being up to par with this IPDA class that you are fixating on. I never claimed that my stock street car, or the cars I have tested, or the cars I've competed against are IPDA cars. My confidence in the ability to build a faster Festiva than those cars comes from comparisons with the two chassis in those videos. You've stated the rules they must conform to, and I have no rules to conform to. My opinion is based on actual lap times against cars of various levels of preparation, and a pretty good understanding of the benefits of things like sequential dog boxes, traction control, telemetry, ABS, highly developed suspension and weight reduction. l'm not obnoxiously calling the cars in IPDA poorly built or slow by saying that a Festiva could be faster.
As far as proof goes. You say that the Festiva chassis is nowhere near as capable as these cars, but have you tried? You keep going on and on about the superiority of dual wishbone suspension, except you forget that the AE86 has (that's right folks) MacPherson strut front suspension and a damn solid axle rear end! I've got several friends with very high HP AE86 cars and I can be very confident in stating they are not up to par with a dialed in Festiva. So, if you have valid infirmation that prives otherwise, why not post it up. Post up some lap times, post your setup, post up something to back these statements and opinions.
Camber gain or not, I've worked over plenty of EG Civics with higher HP, more rubber and similar weight to my Festiva. That is proof of the chassis working just fine. My tires wear evenly and the Festiva hooks up while the Civic spins the inside wheel. I've seen it many times. That's all the proof I need to know that there a lot of potential in this little car.
Focus all you want on what a car should have to be fast. I'll be at the track proving that it's actually a good setup.

[TominMO]

:happy1: