The Festiva Advantage

[FestYboy]

You can bore and stroke a B3 block as much as you like. It doesn't have to be the exact original block the car came with, but must be the same "type", which means it must come from the same casting. So if you substituted a B6 block for a B3 block (taller deck height on the B6 I assume) the car would have a minimum weight including driver of 965kg. Same with changing from a SOHC to DOHC head.

So you could race a Festiva with a fully worked B6 DOHC engine, but it would have to weigh 965kg. About the same as a Civic, except the Civic would have a B16A, better suspension design, wider track, bigger tyres.

Or you could race a Festiva with a bored/stroked B3 block and SOHC 8 valve head and make it as light as you can. And you would get lapped in a 10 lap race.

B3 and b6 are identical save for the cylinders in the B6 being siamesed to allow the larger bore. Also, the Festiva GTA uses a de-stroked B6 block with dohc to achieve the 1.3L displacement.... So technically, a B6D is a factory stroked GTA. Would that pass tech?

[Advancedynamix]

I'm very very confident that a well prepped BJ Festiva could out perform an equally prepped AE86 or EG civic with a moderately talented FWD driver. The BJ is not only a stock engine for these cars, it's possibly the best (geometrically speaking) B series engine possible for these cars.
Keep in mind that the car in this thread will run 4 seconds a lap faster than a well prepared and well driven S2000 on a sub 2 minute track (and this is just a b6d, the BJ has a higher rev limit, which really opens up more possibilities on tne track.) The Festiva is quite exceptional on a race track.

This is the first and only time trials event I entered with this car. This is a street car, with 7 speaker stereo, amp, and comfy interior. The car qualifies as an HL4 car, but I ran HL3 so that Gila Monster racing could build championship points in HL4. They use these wins for Mazda Motorsport eligibility. The S2000 and Porsche 944 are both prepared track cars and the drivers were competing for a championship as well. The 944 driver won the 2016 championship, and the S2000 came in 3rd behind the fully prepared NA Miata of Gila Monster Racing. As you can see, Pedro was 4 seconds a lap faster than both of these prepared sports cars. This is with a very modest b6d engine. This is a full weight car, with soft street suspension that is comfortable.

Here is the championship points standings pulled off the Pro Autosports web site for those who don't believe this data. As you can see I tied for 7th place after only running 1 event (100 points is an event win) and the 944 driver won the championship. My B6t Festiva was a HL2 class champion (2 years before this), which is generally a big bore sports car class.

[Advancedynamix]

Oh, and for those who notice the EG civic that was a little over a second faster than Pedro that day.
CLICK HERE TO SEE PHIL'S EG

A fully built 250hp KA24 EG is only 1 second a lap faster than my daily driven comfy 110hp Festiva on 185mm used R comps. Something tells me the built K series wouldn't be legal in IPRA either. Lol

[ryanprins13]

The civic is supposed to have 270hp but people seem to argue over weather its a 1.6 or 2.0 NA.
He has an electric water pump, remote strut resovoirs, manual brake bias adjustment inside the car, not much else special.
Sure other types of suspension are supposed to be better than what we got but so is a mid engine rwd....
I think its been shown that the suspension could do well enough in this race group.
Slight difficulties if someone wanted to race this class would be engine and tires, but im quite sure all it would take is either someone dedicated to figuring it out or else hiring someone to do it who knows that their doing like dragonhealer, advancedynamix (if he was hirable), dickmyer, Carlos....
I think all it would take is someone who wanted to do it badly enough to put the money, time and effort in. Building a competative engine wouldnt be cheap but the rest wouldnt be any more expensive than what the rest of the guys spend on their cars.
Oh, and you need a talented driver. Put me in that civic and it wont be in the pole position, lol.

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[Advancedynamix]

Since Pedro was within 1.5 seconds of a 250hp K24 EG civic the only time I ever competed in the car, it's a pretty safe bet that it wouldn't be that hard to beat a 270hp b series (way less TQ than the k24) with an engine that was actually built for track work. Lol.
Keep in mind guys, Pedro and Tweak are both street cars with street prepared engines. I have not yet begun to use my resources for building true race machines on these cars. That is my next focus though. I'm not interested in running a touring car class though. I actually want to go fast, not just race other over regulated slow cars.

[Wedge]

2127 lbs ? That's still pretty light. I would build it rather then make it lighter. These cars are amazing on the track with just a few mods and race rubber I really doubt the festiva suspension is any worse then the civic yiu don't see many civics running down supercars will 500 dollar suspensions.

Festiva suspension is significantly worse than an EG Civic. Under bump the Festiva loses camber while the Civic gains it, the Festiva sway bar setup is terrible, it's hard to get enough castor and the roll centre is atrocious. And the tyres are smaller and the track is narrower. You guys think the Festiva suspension is good because it's inherent weaknesses are masked by good power to weight and grip to weight ratios. One of my all time favourite sayings: "Lack of power gives the illusion of good handling."

Are you allowed to change to a different engine from the same manufacturer?

Yes, in theory you could run any 4 cylinder engine that came out of an Australian delivered Ford if the car was presented as a Festiva, or any 4 cylinder engine that came out of a Mazda if it was presented as a 121. Engine configuration (in-line), location (front), drive (front) and orientation (transverse) must remain as original.

B3 and b6 are identical save for the cylinders in the B6 being siamesed to allow the larger bore. Also, the Festiva GTA uses a de-stroked B6 block with dohc to achieve the 1.3L displacement.... So technically, a B6D is a factory stroked GTA. Would that pass tech?

No, the model has to be Australian delivered (ADM/as it was sold here) or have FIA Group A homologation (either for Rally or Touring Car racing, there is no difference as far as homologation is concerned). No Festiva models were ever Group A homologated.

I'm very very confident that a well prepped BJ Festiva could out perform an equally prepped AE86 or EG civic with a moderately talented FWD driver. The BJ is not only a stock engine for these cars, it's possibly the best (geometrically speaking) B series engine possible for these cars.
Keep in mind that the car in this thread will run 4 seconds a lap faster than a well prepared and well driven S2000 on a sub 2 minute track (and this is just a b6d, the BJ has a higher rev limit, which really opens up more possibilities on tne track.) The Festiva is quite exceptional on a race track.

I hear what you are saying but I don't think you get it. Group 3J Improved Production (the Australian race category I am talking about) is a hell of a lot more advanced than your "track cars". The front running under 2 litre cars have between 290 and 310 flywheel hp, close ratio dog boxes (which generally cost in the range of $8k to $12k AUD), Motec ECUs with logging dash etc.. I asked a well known builder if AP 290x28mm curved vane 2 piece floating front rotors would be big enough for my AE86 with 2 litre engine. He said I should go with at least 30mm! The rulebook is not a free-for-all either. A lot of items are very tightly controlled. 100% standard lower control arms must be used in the front suspension for example. You can read the rule book here if you want to:http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Race/...-3J-2017-1.pdf

Oh, and for those who notice the EG civic that was a little over a second faster than Pedro that day.
CLICK HERE TO SEE PHIL'S EG

A fully built 250hp KA24 EG is only 1 second a lap faster than my daily driven comfy 110hp Festiva on 185mm used R comps. Something tells me the built K series wouldn't be legal in IPRA either. Lol

That civic is closer to a street car than a race car. An EG (with minimum weight limit) can run a KA20 in under 2000cc class or a KA24 in 2001-3000cc class.

The civic is supposed to have 270hp but people seem to argue over weather its a 1.6 or 2.0 NA.
He has an electric water pump, remote strut resovoirs, manual brake bias adjustment inside the car, not much else special.
Sure other types of suspension are supposed to be better than what we got but so is a mid engine rwd....
I think its been shown that the suspension could do well enough in this race group.
Slight difficulties if someone wanted to race this class would be engine and tires, but im quite sure all it would take is either someone dedicated to figuring it out or else hiring someone to do it who knows that their doing like dragonhealer, advancedynamix (if he was hirable), dickmyer, Carlos....
I think all it would take is someone who wanted to do it badly enough to put the money, time and effort in. Building a competative engine wouldnt be cheap but the rest wouldnt be any more expensive than what the rest of the guys spend on their cars.
Oh, and you need a talented driver. Put me in that civic and it wont be in the pole position, lol.

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Not much else special lol! The special is in the stuff you can't see. The suspension geometry, the shock valving, the power/torque curve of the engine matched to the close ratio box. The cost to build a front running Civic is somewhere in the $50k-$100k AUD bracket, so about $30k to $60k USD.

Since Pedro was within 1.5 seconds of a 250hp K24 EG civic the only time I ever competed in the car, it's a pretty safe bet that it wouldn't be that hard to beat a 270hp b series (way less TQ than the k24) with an engine that was actually built for track work. Lol.
Keep in mind guys, Pedro and Tweak are both street cars with street prepared engines. I have not yet begun to use my resources for building true race machines on these cars. That is my next focus though. I'm not interested in running a touring car class though. I actually want to go fast, not just race other over regulated slow cars.

Improved Production cars are not slow. What did you have in mind, a World Time Attack Festiva?

I don't want to take away anything from the street cars you have built. They have been well prepared with attention to detail and they punch well above their weight. Sorry to clutter up your thread.

[Advancedynamix]

No apology needed! This is great discussion, and I'm very thankful that it has been brought up. However, this thread is not the place for this discussion. This build thread is for a car that was collecting dust at my rental property, and I tossed a spare engine and FI system in it and have enjoyed it for a few years. This car is as far from a race car as you can get without being a bone stock Buick Lesabre. However, with that said, the Festiva street cars that I have put together have performed well enough to challenge a lot of my presumptions about chassis design and function (many of those presumptions are parallel with what you bring up here in your comments.)

[Advancedynamix]

The 13 posts above this were transfered from Pedro's build thread in order to better organize and collect any data, opinions or observations.

[Dragonhealer]

....................well enough to challenge a lot of my presumptions about chassis design and function (many of those presumptions are parallel with what you bring up here in your comments.)

I have to agree, I and many others had these presumptions when we competed successfully in World Challenge with the MK5 Jettas 2.0T, but the last 4 years working with Charlie and the Festivas has been an eye opener and no mistake !

[FestYboy]

Ah, i presume at 300hp it is no longer a B3 either.
Other than it breaking all the time that sounds like fun, Do you have a post on here describing what you've done to your car?


I dont know, mine would go past 7200 if i kept the pedal down, but i dont want to try it. I dont think any of them had rev limiters? What happens when you get to 6k?



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The only Festivas that don't have an ECU fuel cut at just over 6k are the carb cars... Scrappy (b6 swapped 88L) has seen over 10k before... (That wasn't intentional and I wasn't behind the wheel) but it survived with no issues thankfully.

[Advancedynamix]

That sounds like a stretch!

[FestYboy]

No... Ask Caety... She was operating the gas pedal and I have a 10k sunpro on the dash.... She pegged it. Soon after that I installed the MSD with a rev limiter.

[Advancedynamix]

I mean 10k rpm is known to stretch things. Lol

[Dragonhealer]

Only the rod bolts, usually frees up some power, 7hp on the 2.0T

[Advancedynamix]

You've seen the rods in a B3, lol. I think they may be weaker than the bolts.