The Festiva Advantage

[skeeters_keeper]

Wedge, can we see your car? And is it a US style festiva or an aspire?


If it's a brake swap then you're talking apples and oarnges.

[Advancedynamix]

If it's a brake swap then you're talking apples and oarnges.

"Brake swap" = WB Festiva (Aspire, bubble ect ect).

So, anyway, the point I'm trying to get to with all this back n forth is; the WA Festiva is deceivingly fast on a race track, with a proper setup. It's very difficult to feel the full potential of this chassis on the street. They are fun on the street, don't get me wrong, but you've got to spend some time on a race track to really see the benefits.
When I built my first B6t Festiva (Tweak) I wasn't really that impressed with it. I thought the engine was way down on power and I thought the chassis felt numb and lazy. That was my first opinion, until I started pounding out laps in the car at one of our local road coarse. My first year of track driving Tweak, I had no idea how to drive it, but it was very clear to me and anyone watching that there was more than just a power to weight advantage at play.
With every track event I did with Tweak, I was able to dial it in to be quicker and quicker. I was also able to learn how to drive the car. I come from a VW/Porsche background. I've driven a lot of fast FWD cars, but the Festiva is much different than a Golf or Civic. It should go without saying that it's an entirely different animal than a GT3 or GT2 911, but the level of high speed refinement is something you'd expect from a GT car.
Driving a festiva takes awhile to master (and believe me, I've still got a long way to go before I'm any good at it, but that's the fun part.) In the early days of track tuning Tweak, my closest rival was an improved touring class EG hatch with the same power to weight ratio as Tweak and 215mm wide 15" slicks. The driver of the EG (Tim) would run street groups and time trials to get more seat time in his car. He was consistently the fastest in his class and enjoyed driving with me for a little challenge and competition l. At every event though, I would gain a few seconds on Tim's EG, and by the end of that first season I would lap Tim at least once a session. I was using softer and softer spring rates, learning what alignment the car liked and gaining confidence in the Festiva's ability to not only pivot quickly, but also set in to high speed lines with practically no compromise between the two types of corner. I was learning how to build and keep heat in the rear tires. I was learning where the best shift points are and how to use the clutch and a downshift to settle into an apex, so that braking wasn't needed in certain corners. These are all things that wouldn't have been easy to practice on the street.
Dragonhealer stood by for a good portion of the laps I pounded out, with a stop watch in hand. He helped me determine what was working and what wasn't. Sometimes I would use a transponder to verify what he was giving me for feedback, and the official times would often be a little quicker (were talking a few tenths of a second) than his report. Ryal is very good with a stop watch (he's been recording lap times since long before I was born.)
Anyway, all the conflict and finger pointing aside, the Festiva has a unique suspension design and chassis setup when compared to other cars. If you present it to 100 racing engineers, 95 of them will turn the other cheek, 3 of them will smile and nod, and 2 will say, "let's try this thing!"

[Grey Vw]

I'm glad to hear that you weren't just some driving god and instantly knew how to drive the Festiva. I'm excited to begin learning how to drive.

[chrisofna]

So when's the next installment of this program? Please don't make this a Rick and Morty season 3 situation.

[Advancedynamix]

It's still a work in progress. I'm putting together a few different cars with different setups to explore this chassis further and examine what happens when certain changes are made.
I believe I may have taken the street setup as far as it will go, but I'm now working on track purposed builds.
The info that I've collected with the street cars that I've built is well documented throughout this forum and updates are regularly posted.

[Advancedynamix]

The basic breakdown of applying thoery to a street/performance festiva goes something like this.

- Both front and rear suspension on the festiva are very sensitive to ride height and alignment settings.

- The chassis must be set up with the front ball joints 3/4" to 1" lower than the control arm to body pivot centerline. For proper front end grip.

-The rear height should be set so that the lowest body pinch weld seam is level with the ground front to rear, on both sides of the car, with driver weight in the car.

- Negative camber is very valuable on both ends of the Festiva. It improves driving traction, straight line and cornering stability and efficiency in the front and improves stability, and cornering traction in the rear. This car can operate with -3 degrees of negative cyber on all 4 corners without any abnormal tire wear if the toe is set to 1/32 total toe in (as measured with Longacre style toe plates). In the rear, negative camber turns into toe in when the suspension is compressed and toe out when the suspension extends. When the body of the car rolls in a curve, negative camber acts as a steering system in the rear, which counteracts oversteer. This helps stabilize the car when traction limits are tested. Negative camber is not just for track driven cars. It helps in all conditions. It makes the car easier to drive in snow, rain, mud and gravel. Having the rear end of the car properly set up is just as important as how well the engine runs.

- These cars benefit greatly from moving the driveline forward. This puts more weight on the front wheels. These cars handle much better with more weight focused on the front wheels. They handle worse when weight is moved towards the rear. Moving the battery to the rear is a bad idea for many reasons, but weight distribution is the most important if you want your Festiva to handle well at high speeds.

-chassis flex starts at the very front of the chassis, where the front sway bar attaches to the body. This area should be reinforced in cars with over 150ftlbs of TQ. Reinforcing this area will effectively strengthen the entire front of the car, as the front lower radiator support ties the frame rails together in the most critical area of the car. Chassis flex in other areas of the car seems beneficial. Front sway bar flex is critical to traction. The bar is designed to flex longitudinally under driving load. This is one of the greatest benefits that the Festiva has over other FWD cars.

-shock valving is very important. The stock festiva has just enough rebound dampening to keep the body from bouncing like a pogo stick. Changes can be made to help the cars stability and roll cherictaristics. Added rebound dampening in the front and compression dampening in the rear will help control weight transfer while accelerating and while cornering. Added compression dampening in the front and rebound dampening in the rear will control weight transfer while braking.

-Shock length and travel is also important. Body roll can be reduced with shorter rear shocks. This works much better than stiffer springs or anti roll bars. Shorter shocks allow for soft springs to be used. Soft springs will allow the rear wheels to move more freely while absorbing bumps. This provides a more comfortable and confidence inspiring ride than if stiff springs and anti roll bars are used to control body roll. By using shorter shocks, and softer springs, rather than stock length shocks with stiffer springs and anti roll bars, the rear of the car will be able to flex as it was intended and therfore provide better traction.

-Spring rates should be chosen to compliment the shock valving used. Rate numbers are not helpful unless you have many rates from the same manufacturer to test. A higher spring rate isn't necessarily the answer to make the car feel more firm and planted. That should be addressed with shock valving. The spring simply supports the load, or shouldn't need used as the primary method of controlling body roll.

-The Festiva is best suited for a long and smooth TQ curve. The engine that is chosen should not produce more TQ than the car can put to the ground at any point in the TQ curve. Wheelspin is bad for any type of performance driving.

-The amount of TQ a festiva can use without wheelspin is dependent on many factors. Some of the more prominent factors are; TQ curve, vehicle weight, driveline placement (vehicle weight distribution), tires used and driving surface conditions.
The TQ curve of the engine, as well as the way the engine delivers TQ is a very important concern when building a Festiva for performance. The smoother the engine makes and delivers it's TQ, the more TQ the car will be able to use. Abrupt TQ curves should be avoided. That type of TQ will feel fast to the inexperienced driver, but will actually be much slower than a TQ curve which is properly matched to the car and it's purpose.

[theastronaut]

Since you mentioned torque curve, can we discuss that a bit here? Having a carb'd B3 Festiva and a NA6 Miata, the torque curves of the stock engines seem to be complete opposites. The Festiva delivers it's torque instantly from just over idle speed, easily breaking traction in first gear from a stop in the rain without dumping the clutch. The Miata makes no torque until 3500-4000, then power continues to build to around 7,000 rpm. I have coilovers and stickier tires on the Miata and I have to be very aggressive with the throttle and steering to get it to even momentarily break traction in the rain. The Festiva with only 58 hp but "instant" torque can spin the inside tire coming out of a tight second gear corner, to the point of having to pedal it to regain traction (probably need taller rear bump stops to help with that).

Since I'll be swapping a Miata B6ze into the Festiva, I've been wondering about the difference in torque delivery and how it will affect the car on the track. I'll mostly be autocrossing it, so I was wondering if the slow/gradual torque curve of the Miata engine might hurt the corner exit speeds on slower/lower rpm corners? I've autocrossed the Miata and it can be an absolute slouch if I'm coming out of a tight turn at less than 4K rpm. I think the planned Webers/IR intake and bumping the compression up will help a lot with low/midrange torque and throttle response, but too much low end torque is a bad thing if it overwhelms the tires. I'll be moving the engine forward 2.125" so that will allow me to apply more torque without wheelspin. I guess I'm mostly wondering if the Miata engine will make enough torque to pull the car out of lower speed/lower rpm corners, since it's a "problem" in the Miata. I'm interested in your thoughts on the subject.

[Dragonhealer]

For starters, you'll have essentially the same weight on the front axle of the festy as you have on the back of the Miata, but 500 pounds less overall weight. A Miata powered Festiva is a hoot to drive, the torque curve of the B6ze is well suited to this setup.

[Advancedynamix]

John, the b6ze is much better suited to a Festiva than the B3.
The Festiva and Miata chassis are drastically different in a few ways. Not only is the Festiva 500lbs lighter (which is a huge amount of weight in these light, low TQ cars) but it's transversely mounted driveline is a minimum of 10% more efficient than the longitudinally mounted RWD setup in the Miata.
Pedro's new owner (Jim) wants to swing by your shop. You might want to take Pedro out for a spin around your loop to feel what the b6d feels like. There is no traction issues to speak of. The b6 DOHC engine makes more TQ in the mid range than the B3, but it delivers it in a smoother manner. The b6 DOHC engine (b6d,b6t,b6ze,b61p) has a double throw crank and a harmonic balancer. This added crank weight and harmonic dampening really help the engine to deliver a smoother and more tractable TQ than the B3 with it's single throw crank and lack of dampening.
Moving the engine forward and using the G series transmission will take things a step further in the right direction. Also, your DCOE engine should have a more broad and usable TQ range. I highly doubt that you'll have complaints about it not pulling out of corners. Invest in a good crank dampener pulley and a set of cams and that engine has the capability of making B6t HP with a wider and more usable TQ curve. I'm excited for you to get this thing together so I can come give it a whirl!

[theastronaut]

Awesome, I was just afraid that I'd be wishing for more low/midrange torque after the swap. The Miata is a total slouch under 4,000 rpm and I was hoping to avoid that. I knew it would be more responsive in the lighter Festiva, but wasn't sure how much better it would be. I'll be starting the engine build soon, so I'll start a new thread for the questions I have about that.

[greywolf200]

Charlie, awesome as usual.

Jack Byrd

[Sid_RallyX_82]

So that's what happens when a non-conformist invades our cult...

[Advancedynamix]

Most of us are already non conformist types. Difference in opinions are welcome, but will most likely be dismissed without any proof to support claims that are an argument against opinions which have been tested.

None of this stuff is written in stone, but it's all an attempt to understand and explain why I can jump into a Festiva and consistently run faster laps in it than I do in sports cars with drastically more preparation and money invested. The Festiva advantage.

[mikemounlio]

My very limited opinion: i have built a festiva that's more ridiculous then race car. Im trying to race my ridiculous car! In my first ever race on a very badly setup car and i did pretty decent. I came in lower to mid pack. I was not close to the bottom tho. I had no idea on how to handle the car or the power. No idea on how to hit the turns. No idea on how to properly use the gas and brakes. Couldnt get the car to act right and i still did ok. Next time out i will have her dialed in a bit more and i will plan my lines a bit better. I have the 1st time jitters out of the way now.

The car does great. I took on this chalange because it would be funny! I have stayed because i fell in love with the car and because of charlie and what he has told me so many times!

Im a firm beliver in this car! Im 7 seconds off the fastest guy at my local autox track. Which is a ton but not if you think about all he has into his car and his 15 years driving experience. He was on slicks wider then the festiva...

The festiva is no joke. Once i get her dialed in and learn a few better ways to handle her ill be running some very fast times.

Im 100% festy fan boy. This car is real

[mikemounlio]

Id like to add that i saw a good driver in a well built B6T festiva on the same day as me. He ran 2 seconds faster then i did. My codriver said his car was crasy compared to mine that it just went! I ran decent times due to hp. He ran good times due to skill. In theory i should be able to match or best his time due to he was running low on power in spots. I know for sure that on my fastest lap i could do it again and drop that time quite a bit. My style of driving was way off. My slalom was terrible, i apexed badly on every turn, i spun the tires non stop, i let off the gas way to early, didnt brake very good, pushed through the turns very badly, didnt turn the wheel enough on the bigger turns. I made many many mistakes. Yet the car helped me still do good.

I wonder what i would have looked like in say a mustang or a miata!