Road Racing Thread

[sketchman]

... I chased down a Porsche 911 Cabriolet with a bone stock carbureted Festiva. The only mod to this car is the o.z. wheels and 165/45/15 tires. It even has worn out shift bushings and 2 blown cv boots! If it weren't for that 1/2 mile straight I would have stayed in front of the M3 too! Lol.

That's awesome! I had Festivas before I ever understood how to DRIVE!!!!, so I never got to really play with one. I did however, stick 225/15s on the Neon once. Borrowed them from my buddy's MR2 for a week, and pushed them HARD once with him in the car. That was on the stock old suspension too. I had to reassure him that I knew the road well enough to do what I was doing, in the dark. He was holding on and squirming a bit. Then he drove it, and all was understood.

I can only imagine what Tweak feels like with so much more power, so much less weight, and no speed limit, err cops I mean.

[Advancedynamix]

Yeah, I have turboed and built a lot of FWD cars, but this is the first time I have done it with a focus on transferring weight forward . This is the first car that has benefited in every performance aspect ( even comfort) from the modifications.

[kumalaba]

that miata is awesome! i sold my 1.8 miata last year & with just ebay coilovers it handled like a gocart up in these twisty mtn. roads! just ask neanderpaul !!

[blkfordsedan]

I love seeing all the vids of "sportscars" yielding to your Festy! I suspect you are are a much better driver than you admit... Not to take anything away from your car.

Most of us (like myself) will probably never see a proper road course. However, we enjoy "spirited" driving on the occasional country road. I agree with your theory of FWD weight bias and suspension design. What would you recommend for the average Joe looking for a better driving experience? I know you don't feel the Festy needs bigger sway bars or chassis bracing, and the rear beam needs to flex, but on a stock suspension with factory struts, springs and the lighter B3, would not a stiffer rear beam (like an Aspire) help by transferring more weight to the front?

When 100% stock, my Fesy handled like a refrigerator on a skateboard. With only the addition of FMS lowering springs, new Monroe struts and MOOG LCA bushings, it was a night-n-day difference. When I added the 175/50-13 Sumitomos, it was even better. My opinion is that lowering the CG, combined with stiffer spring rates, was the key. At this point, would adding a rod to the rear beam (ala' Aspire) be a mistake? I also plan on replacing the heavy steel rear bumper core with a piece of aluminum channel. Custom coil overs will probably never happen, due to expense, but I would consider some GR2s when the Monroe's wear out.

[Advancedynamix]

Brian,

Luckily, everything that is being tested on my car can be used to give a good comfortable road feel. This car is more comfortable than my stock Festivas on a trip around town, even when not pushing the limits.
A stiffer rear sway bar, like the one found in an aspire beam, will allow you to run more travel and softer springs in the rear. I would recommend this to people who drive on very rough roads a lot. By rough, I mean washboarded dirt roads with potholes and ruts. Otherwise the sway bar is really just a bandaid for the fact that the festiva has far too much droop in the rear.

For a more comfortable daily driver and better cornering performance I recommend running shorter shocks in the rear. the festivas worst enemy (well besides those wretched 12" tires) is it's Baja 1000 worthy suspension travel. My rear shocks are 3" shorter than a standard KYB Gr2 festiva shock and I could take another inch out. By eliminating the excess travel, I have drastically reduced the body roll, while still enabling the rear suspension to work independently (something that is lost with stiffer anti sway). This allows the car to conform to the road surface with less effort and makes a much more efficient package. Reducing the amount of droop also allows me to run softer spring rates without body roll. Half of the body roll is the inside spring trying to push the car upward, an anti roll bar reduces this by transferring some of the weight from the outside to fight the spring on the inside. In doing this it also makes both sides half as efficient at doing their job of absorbing bumps and maintaining traction. By not having excess droop to control, there is less need for anti sway. This saves weight in the rear end (extremely important), makes the car easier to set up and is less complicated than sway bars. I'm trying to find cost effective solutions for this, so that when people like yourself need new shocks they can really improve the ride of the car, without dumping more money into it than they would have for stock stuff. The great part about shortening the shocks is that you can use stock spring rates and have less body roll, with more comfort. Win Win!
I'm really interested in gestivas air shocks. This is a great idea and could really add both performance and connivence to our cars.

http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/showthread.php?46758-91-GL-with-ALL-Options-BP-power-with-PS-A-C&p=566312&viewfull=1#post566312

[blkfordsedan]

Could a guy just use some cable as an extension travel limiter.....like on the front of a drag car, except in this case on the rear axle?

I remember reading a Super Ford magazine about 25 years ago. There was a guy with a 69 Mustang Trans Am racer. He said that sway bars are the antithesis of a properly working suspension. His car had only springs and shocks, and no sway bars on either end. They claimed it handled like it was on rails and still rode as good as stock.

[Red rocket]

Hey BLKford, Did you ever get a chance to see my red B6T festiva when it was in lincoln? I know the previous owners took it out racing pretty often.

[blkfordsedan]

Was it the one owned by a younger guy named Brian that worked at Speedway?

[Red rocket]

I'm not sure about that, I bought it from guy named Brook who only had it about a year I think. It's pretty beat up on the outside/inside but it still moves pretty quick.

[Advancedynamix]

Could a guy just use some cable as an extension travel limiter.....like on the front of a drag car, except in this case on the rear axle?

I remember reading a Super Ford magazine about 25 years ago. There was a guy with a 69 Mustang Trans Am racer. He said that sway bars are the antithesis of a properly working suspension. His car had only springs and shocks, and no sway bars on either end. They claimed it handled like it was on rails and still rode as good as stock.

Yeah, I try to tune a chassis to the absolute limit without sway bars, and then add anti sway as necessary (it is needed at some point on many vehicles). This insures the smallest bar possible, which is key. One nice thing about the trailing beam as opposed to most independent style rear suspension systems is that it is less likely to squat when acted on by lateral forces due to the position of the fulcrum in relation of force. Basically, a trailing beam is naturally less likely to body roll than other forms of independent suspension (even multi link). It does all of this while still being so simple in construction and so lightweight. This means less need for heavy rate springs and valving, and also less need for heavy s sway bars and associated linkage. I have found that 200lb springs in the rear of my car are too heavy, even on bias ply slicks. I like my 175lb springs and on rough tracks I prefer the 150lb (also tracks where I will be hitting a lot of curbing). 150lb is perfect on the street, but if I'm going to be carrying engines and other crap in the back I'll opt for the 175s.
Limiters may work good as well. I hadn't even thought of that. I can shorten my shocks easier than setting up a limiter system, but for others this could be the ticket. There are already some thereaded holes in the fender wells (seatbelt mounting holes and stuff). My car gets tight in those areas with the 7" slicks, but on a street car with 165 and smaller tires I don't see too much issue. Could be tested with a couple harbor freight tow straps and some fender washers.

[Advancedynamix]

The only real benefit I see to shorter shocks over limiters is that, with shortened shock shafts or shorter shocks to begin with, you will be riding in the correct part of the shock stroke for the most optimim valving. A lot of times, putting lowering springs on standard length shocks will cause the shock to work in a different part of it's stroke, which may have drastically different valving characteristics than where the shock would typically be at during it's designed working range. This isn't always the case, as most low cost shocks are linear. However, I have had this problem with German cars before because Sachs, BOGE and Bilstein all use non linear valving for many OEM applications.

[blkfordsedan]

I don't know what the FMS springs are in terms of rate, but they are shorter and definitely made a difference. They were short enough that I didn't need a spring compressor to install them. I'm very happy with how it handles right now, but I guess I'm a little disappointed that it didn't take a bunch of trick parts to get it there. Almost too easy.

[Movin]

This is exactly opposite to what works for me on trails, skidder roads, logging roads and desert sand roads. There are rear travel stops already on the rear suspension, I doubt that you guys are even close to it. No extra weight as it is there but it might work with an adjuster or simply extending it some. Being able to put springs in with out a little compression means that area of your suspension is not working right. Some shocks with little or no gas pressure can aerate the shock oil without some spring pressure on them. It would seem that suspension travel, spring rate/travel and shock travel all need to be tuned together to get the most out of the rear.

Just as an example of how different our objectives are my springs are 14 inch with a 80 lb spring rate!
The rear VW shocks have more travel than stock, dampen approximately 30% more..Makes for a great ride off road and tows trailer like its not back there!

[blkfordsedan]

LOL, yes...much different objectives. With the 175/50-13s, I scrape the tow hooks under the front bumper on a regular basis. But, the beautiful part is the simple Festy suspension can accommodate both applications! Just to clarify, it does take a fair amount of spring compression to install the FMS springs, but the average medium to large guy can lean over the top hat and compress the springs just enough to thread the retaining nut on the strut by hand. My struts were Monroe Sensi-tracs that had about 20k miles on them. I'm sure they don't have the rebound force of brand new units, but it drives and rides great. I suspect that a new set of Gr2s would offer even better results.

[kumalaba]

charlies a great driver but even more so he has mad skills setting up the cars he races!!