B6 Stutter

[skeeters_keeper]

OK so i've but about 200mi on this engine now, and have been having this problem since the begining. Here's a vid of the most noticable problem:



The other symptoms are:
-high idle (can't tell how high i don't have a tach)
-the engine keeps revving for a few seconds after i clutch-in between gears and then it dies down
-I also keep getting a code-17, O2 sensor code, but not the o2 sensor fail code its more an of emisions thing, most likely due to improper fuel/spark (according to Haynes).
-Also seems to be drinking gass...

It seems to me that my timing is about 50* TDC, but as you can see its not running very bad? and if i retard the timing it begins to stumble.

BUT i'm very confused about the timing. In this pic i have the crank/cam marks ligned up as TDC, and the disty rotor is pointing at the #1 plug terminal, see where the timing mark is?





I used the B3 pulley (in better condition) but the marks are at the same place on the B3/B6 pulleys. I've also got the B3 distributer installed. New plugs/cap/rotor (wires are good). no vac leaks that i can find. I cleaned the injectors by hand when i had them out (9v batt to keep them open and carb cleaner).

i'm going to try changing the TPS, or mabye i've got a disty problem, but the disty was running my dying B3 OK....


any ideas are much appreciated!

[kzbill]

Have the same problem intermittently on My b3
if you find it tell me, I changed the dist and it was better but it did it once again today, I am going to try the ignition control module next it is comming in the mail.

[wrestler3025]

Hmmm I guess a few of us are having this problem or one similar to it. If I just step on the gas with the clutch in to rev it some it makes a similar sound to yours skeeter. This is in the Festiva Motorsports B3. I can keep my foot in one spot on the accelerator, and it will sound like I am reving the engine up and down.

[skeeters_keeper]

Spent a while checking out the 323 forums today, for some info on possible broken disty springs? i'm going to check into that as soon as i have a chance. Swapped the TPS out this evening and that stutter seems to have diminished quite a bit! still happens a little though and the ignition timing is still at the same place.


BTW, i belive i made a type-o in the above topic, in the pic i DON'T think the crank is @ TDC, i just took taht pic to illistrate where the timing light says its firing. I need to check that again though...



let me know if any of you find out what the cause is!!

[Gomez]

At first guess I am thinking a little lean in the higher rpm range and a little rich in the lower range. When the engine starts to run out of fuel or is too lean rpm will increase slightly. Also if the engine revs high at idle after running at higher rpm this is a lean mixture. If you are at a good idle then give the engine a super quick burst of throttle then let off the engine should come instantly back to a good idle. If it goes below proper idle then comes back up to proper idle in a second or so then your low end is rich. Possibly where your fuel in going. This is true with a carbed or fuel injected engines. In a carbed engine this is a jetting problem. In a FI engine it means an injector or O2 sensor problem.

I am not sure about timing. I always keep my engines timed standard Factory specs so I can't say what advanced or retarded will do for idle and fuel consumption.

To me it sounds fuel related.

[kzbill]

I originally thought it was fuel related too. I have been chasing this problem on mine for a while. The last thing I did seemed to solve it for a while. I replaced the Distributor with another I had and it went away. then it did it yesterday again. I turn off the ignition switch, wait 10-15 seconds, restart and its gone. it is ignition related. I have replaced the: plugs, cap rotor, wires, O2 sensor, TPS, VAF, another used good Dist, Cecked connections, checked timing, used another good ECU, I ordered an Ignition control module. (little black thingy on shock tower next to coil) not coil yet. spark seems fantastic, have copper wires.
Problem went away with dist for a couple hundred mi. then yesterday it did it again.

[kzbill]

OH ya checked the fuel supply and swapped a pump out with another known good, No rust in tank. This thing runs like a swiss(or japanese watch) until this thing happens.

[wrestler3025]

Or you THOUGHT it went away...tricky little buggers. You dont even have to wait for 10-15 seconds kzbill. I'll be traveling at xx miles an hour, start to lose power and just push the clutch in, click the key back one click and then back to the on position and let the clutch out. Ya don't even have to stop:-)

[wrestler3025]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention. I have replaced plugs, cap rotor, wires, O2 sensor, TPS, VAF, ignition control module, fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, switched out the bypass air had the injectors cleaned by Witchhunter Performance, tried another distributor, checked connections, checked timing, used another good ECU switched out Idle speed control-bypass air and still didn't figure it out.

[skeeters_keeper]

^^ geez.... what else is left ?!?! i've checked just about all those things, my next step was to check the dissy.



i did get rid of the the "missing" when i rev it up under no load that is shown in the vid!! i replaced the TPS. i don't know why that fixed it but it did. I wish i had another car to try the TPS that was causing the "missing" on to see if it really is bad or what. it still stumbles a bit at idle.

today i pulled all the spark plugs, they are all the same basic tan/brown so its not runing supper rich or lean.

right now for me the biggest thing is the ignition timing, i think that is the problem. since the marks on the crank pully are as shown in the pic in my first post when the crank/cam marks are at TDC, I decided to make my own timing mark. I set the crank/cam to TDC, and made a mark right next to the "T" on the timing cover. I then did a timing check (warm engine, jumper wire connected but who knows why) and my new mark was showing about 18-20* BTDC. so i turned the disty back to about 10* BTDC and the high idle went away! it idles what i belive is more normaly now, but i still don't know the exact RPM. I also plugged the B3 ECM back in to see what code it would set, after driving it a bit it also set a code 17 so something is still wrong there, BUT after retarding the timing the thing was SLOW AS CRAP. But i wasn't sure if it was the retart to the timing or the B3 ECM, so i swapped in the B6 ECM again and now it is better but still not as peppy as before. i think i'm going to advance it to like 13* BTDC and see what happens but i havn't yet.

So i got rid of the stutter when opening the throtle under no load, and the idle is somewhat better now (not sure if thats fixed for good or not), but it still continues to rev some after i've clutched in. not as badly as before i think but it still does it...


Man these things are so simple, yet so tricky.... not sure what else to check besides the Disty! i've checked everything else above... ?

[funky technician]

actually thats how mine ran when I forgot to push the plug all the way on on the AMV, I also had CEL too, but it wouldn't let me give it gas, it sounded just like yours does, are you using the b3 AMV?

[skeeters_keeper]

from a search of the forums you are the only person to ever use AMV, google didn't reveal anything either... i'm assuming your talking about th VAF? vane air flow meter?

I have checked the plug on the VAF and made sure the bolts were tight and sprayed starter fluid around all the vac lines to see if there were any vac leaks, nothing. I may take it apart and clean it later just to tripple check but i don't think that is the problem... would be sorta nice though, lol.

Did you check to see what code was set on yours?


EDIT: yes my VAF is the B3 one.

[funky technician]

from a search of the forums you are the only person to ever use AMV, google didn't reveal anything either... i'm assuming your talking about th VAF?

LOL, air metering vane, maybe thats just an aircraft term then, but at least we were talking about the same component :lol: , I didn't check the code, what code reader do you need for that and wheres the port at?[/quote]

[skeeters_keeper]

no code reader, its way easier than OBD II codes. there is a black female single-wire connector by the brake booster. just use a jumper wire to ground that, turn the key to the "on" position (don't start the car just turn the key on) and watch the check-engine light flash. for the first digit it will flash slow, the second digit it will flash quicker. so if you have 1 slow flash and 7 quick flashes you have a code 17, hanes has a list of what the codes mean. takes about 30seconds to do.


and my car is SUCKING gass, i've put about 200mi and my full tank is almost empty... thats 20-25 mpg.... something is way wrong here :/


i did disasemble, clean, and re-install the all the intake ducting... everything seems good. The idle is high again though, and the ignition timing mark i made is back at 20* when i hadn't moved the disty at all!! i'm so confused...

another thing i noticed this evening, every now and then the ignition mark jumps about 30* after TDC for one firing of the spark plug.... HUH??? i think there is a demon in this motor after playing with the timing a little more this everning though (i had it too far retarded earlier) it is much pepier, about what i was expecting out of the B6, but it still sputters a little at (high) idle, and keeps reving after i clutch in, though perhaps not as badly...

[kzbill]

Thia stuttering, loss of power, acts like it is quitting, won't Idle thing seems to be one of the most frustrating and seemingly common issues on these cars.
I plan to keep searching for a definative answer. We need to keep this thing going til we find the real answer for everyone then make it a sticky.
I know in my case I mostly completely eliminated the problem with a Distributor change. The only real difference in the distibutor was the Camshaft/crankshaft position sensor in the distributor. I plan on replacing the Ignition Control Module on the coil bracket too.
jsut for good measure. I am goig to try to find a place to test the distributor if I can. that should tell me something more about the position sensor. If everyone that has this problem works on it a little we should find it by dumb luck if nothing else.