Idle/Timing problem

[Flyin4stroke]

Undo the fuel line from the rail and turn the car on check for fuel.

[festivBS]

that picture was past tdc that's just where it was when i took the picture, not TDC. The motor used to start and would idle but now will only start off of starting fluid. thus meaning i have a fuel problem

[Pocket_Rocket]

Judging by your photos, your cams a out of synch.... The marks on the cam gears should line up with the stamped tabs on the back plate, when the mark on the CRANK GEAR is lined up with its own mark on the oil pump. The mark on your pulley is for ignition timing, not cam timing. I've been in a similar situation, and what I've learned is this: always start with the basics... Make sure cam timing is right, then ignition timing, and then you can worry about fuel and electronics.

[festivBS]

Does this problem sound like a fuel pressure regulator? i think my regulator is stuck open and not pressurizing the rail and letting the gas return to the tank so there is no pressure in the system.

how simple is an oem fpr replacement?

[festivBS]

awesome! thank you for that assurance it feels good to know that.. now to get it running haha

[Flyin4stroke]

As far as the timing goes mine is set at that black little mark. I'm not sure why it hits right there but I have been running it like that for a few months. It must be a setting in the computer or something. I tried grounding sti input also with no result. If your running a walboro all you need is power and ground put it on a temp. switch.

I know it can't be caused by wrong timing cause I have timed it in the past without any problems hitting on the 10-12 degree mark. Just don't know what has changed since and couldn't figure it out just know where it runs best and it pushes 12 psi fine.

[festivBS]

Yeah that was what i planned on doing next, i just need to get ahold of a fuel pressure gauge. is at the fuel rail where i want to be measuring the FP?

[nitrofarm]

my fuel line isn't pressurized when i take it off of the regulator, i have a brand new walboro 255 in tank fuel pump.. shouldn't the system stay pressurized for starting?

the engine wont start without starting fluid and then it dies after the fluid is burnt up. the voltage at my fuel pump with key in start position is 11.6v and with the clutch pushed in and cranking the voltage drops to around 9.4v what could cause this?

Your fuel system should be staying pressurized...If your connection to the pump isnt good. You could be leaking fuel right there in the tank and not know it.(This would explain why your not staying pressurized-) I havent had a cause to check ours yet.But I'm going to step out on a limb and say your fuel systems should be holding pressure for a very long time.Most injected systems are this way.

All coils are designed to operate at @ 9.5 volts.They use a resistor that brings the voltage down to this voltage.So you are okay,they do this cuz when cranking so much current is going to the starter motor that voltage drops.Ever watch someones headlites dim when they start their car? This is why.
Stop trying to start your car with starting fluid now.You know its not spark related.Its fuel related, so you dont need starting fluid.It will dry up the oil around the piston rings.And therefore score the cyl walls. (its has a very drying effect)
You dont mention Fuel pressure. Or did I miss that? You need to know FP @ all 3 stages. Running (which you cant do) Kranking which you can do. And after you stop cranking,which also you can do.
Sooooooo if yoy got low psi at kranking(which I'm assuming) start looking at what would cause that symptom. FP regulator,Fuel Pump or Internal leak in the tank. Maybe this helps.... Good luck, Thomas

[festivBS]

my fuel line isn't pressurized when i take it off of the regulator, i have a brand new walboro 255 in tank fuel pump.. shouldn't the system stay pressurized for starting?

the engine wont start without starting fluid and then it dies after the fluid is burnt up. the voltage at my fuel pump with key in start position is 11.6v and with the clutch pushed in and cranking the voltage drops to around 9.4v what could cause this?

[festivBS]

i think i worded that wrong, our fuel is hooked up correctly cuz i've had that happen and i fixed it lol im wondering if maybe the fuel pressure regulator could be bad? causing the weird slowly dying out activity the car seems to have.

[JohnGunn]

I think my problem is my fuel pressure. without pressing the clutch but turning the key all the way, fuel will come out of the line disconnected at the fuel regulator but it takes a second to come through the line. and with a multimeter i am getting 11v

When i push the clutch in and crank the motor my power drops to 9v and the flow is alot slower. i looked at the b6t wiring guide over and i connected both of my green and red wires with both of the green with yellow for max power to fuel pump like it says.

When i spray starting fluid into the intake it will start and run pretty good and i can throttle it a little bit but it will eventually die (longest it will stay alive is maybe 8 seconds)

im thinking either a bad vaf or injectors.

sidenote: when i disconnect the fuel hose from the regulator and turn the key to the start position, it takes about 3 seconds before fuel comes out but when it comes out it has a pretty solid stream. Situation occurs both with clutch pushed in and not pushed in.

I just about decided that, since I don't know anything about the particular engine you are working with, my suggestions may have proven to be confusing. I know when you talk about wiring issues and the behavior of your fuel pump with and without the clutch pressed that what you are looking at does not match my 1990 Festiva Electrical Troubleshooting Manual. According to that manual if the clutch is not pressed there will be no power to the fuel pump relay. If this makes me confused, whatever I might say will inevitably pass my confusion along to you.

But, before moving on I decided to read your last post one more time and in the first paragraph I had a thought that might be worth mentioning.

You wrote about having fuel appear at the fuel regulator but having to wait second for it to come through the line. I can't speak for the engine you are working on, but on a stock EFI Festiva B3 the fuel line from the filter should go to the fuel rail first, the regulator is at the end of the that rail. Could you have switched the two lines that come from the tank?

With that, I'm done. Good luck. I'll remain subscribed to see how this turns out.

[festivBS]

New problem- No start

I think my problem is my fuel pressure. without pressing the clutch but turning the key all the way, fuel will come out of the line disconnected at the fuel regulator but it takes a second to come through the line. and with a multimeter i am getting 11v

When i push the clutch in and crank the motor my power drops to 9v and the flow is alot slower. i looked at the b6t wiring guide over and i connected both of my green and red wires with both of the green with yellow for max power to fuel pump like it says.

When i spray starting fluid into the intake it will start and run pretty good and i can throttle it a little bit but it will eventually die (longest it will stay alive is maybe 8 seconds)

im thinking either a bad vaf or injectors.

sidenote: when i disconnect the fuel hose from the regulator and turn the key to the start position, it takes about 3 seconds before fuel comes out but when it comes out it has a pretty solid stream. Situation occurs both with clutch pushed in and not pushed in.

[JohnGunn]

got a new walboro 255 installed today and problems solved! gas flows like a champ now. now i'm waiting to get my ecu back so i can see how the timing looks and try to solve that problem again

Glad to hear this. Nothing quite so encouraging as success.

[festivBS]

got a new walboro 255 installed today and problems solved! gas flows like a champ now. now i'm waiting to get my ecu back so i can see how the timing looks and try to solve that problem again

[JohnGunn]

John engine must be running or cranking to create enough air to close fp switch in vaf.

I believe this is correct.

The fuel "system" holds pressure from previous use.

There is a check valve in the pump whose purpose is to maintain fuel pressure between starts so that subsequent starts can be quicker. But that valve is not perfect. Eventually, pressure will decline to the point of no pressure. With zero pressure the engine will not start, unless the starter can turn the engine fast enough to move enough air through the VAF to close its fuel pump switch. I don't know if that is possible or at what cost that would be to the health of a battery.

That aside, lets take the case of a newly installed pump or fuel filter. When the engine is started after one of those procedures, there will be no pressure in the system and a considerable amount of air where there should be fuel. If your battery is not capable of turning the engine over fast enough to turn on the fuel pump and keep it running long enough to build up the required pressure, you're dead in the water. Your only recourse would be a new battery or to jumper the fuel pump to make it turn on before the engine starts. These are the kinds of problems designers are paid to anticipate and prevent.

If the pistons arent moving the fuel shouldnt be moving either.

This seems correct, but the fuel pump does more that just move fuel through the system to the cylinders. It runs constantly to build and maintain pressure. That pressure is what forces fuel through the injectors when they open. Without pressure, no fuel in cylinders. Without fuel in the cylinders, not ignition. Without ignition, no start.

Of course, this discussion is theoretical and involves a certain amount of speculation. In the end, what really matters is what is. And, in this case, what really happens, according to my 1990 Festiva electrical manual, is that the fuel pump is turned on when the ignition switch is turned to "start" and the clutch switch is closed at the same time.

Still, I think the kind of thinking you're doing is important. I believe, in all things, it is much better to resist what other people tell you and check whatever you are told against your own analysis. And even if you're wrong, as in this case, you will be preparing yourself for the time when you make your own, better, design one day.

If it would help, I could email you pictures of the relevant pages from my manual. [smile]Or you could just trust me.[/smile]