Idle/Timing problem

[festivBS]

JohnGunn- i really appreciate all the effort you are putting into helping me. i think the new mark i put on the pulley will be my key to solving this problem i hope. all the things you suggested about checking rotor position and things like that i have done and yes the cap is labeled 1342 in a counter-clock wise rotation. and yes i have been grounding the sti as well as plugging off the vaccum line that you're supposed to do. The computer and distributer are original from when the motor ran before i pulled it.

I have a timing light now but now we have a new problem! i cant get it to run again and i've ran down the problem (broadly). im not getting fuel to the motor but i have got it before so what could cause it to stop? I've checked all electrical and it all seems fine and all my plugs are in all the way. also when i took the fuel line that comes from the pump there was gas in it and i turned the key and heard that the pump itself is working but still i get no fuel at the motor. does this mean my fuel line is clogged somehow or maybe my fuel filter? i replaced the fuel filter with a normal oem replacement filter. all i can think is that the line is clogged but why would it allow gas to get through sometimes and the motor runs but other times it wont let gas through?

[JohnGunn]

For Your Eyes Only

awesome next day i have off work i will check this and update back on here. thank you

As you can see, this is pretty long, and I wouldn't be surprised if most people quickly skim over it to get on to the good, short stuff. But my feeling, discovered on those occasions when I have been on the receiving end of the advice game, is that I have never seen a message too long, if it addresses the issues I am currently struggling with. festivaBS, this is for you, and should no one else read it, "For Your Eyes Only".

I'm not sure I should weigh in here since I can't imagine a design in which the mark used to set ignition timing is not permanently LOCKED to the position of the crankshaft. That being said, I'll, nevertheless, venture forth into the uncertain unknown.

First, I remain convinced that the behavior of your engine indicates that your timing is off by a lot, I'd like to say 180 degrees, but that would be just a guess. The fast idle you start off at is the idle that comes when an engine is too retarded and runs fast but with very little power. Then, as you continue to turn the distributor in the direction you are convince it should go, you retard it more and eventually get to the point where the timing becomes so retarded it doesn't have the power to maintain even that powerless fast idle. That results in your "bogging". As you keep retarding you eventually get to the point at which the engine doesn't produce enough power to keep itself running and it dies.

Someone mentioned that you might try adjusting the idle speed. I think you would be better off leaving the idle speed alone for now. It was correctly set the last time the engine was running, and changing it to agree with a clearly mistimed ignition would be a mistake, requiring another adjustment later, when you have gotten the timing properly set.

I must say that what you have done in marking TDC on the crankshaft pulley according to your actual measurement of the position of the 1st piston, sounds like a good way to start finding which of the elements of the timing is off, especially since you don't have access to a timing light. The mark you placed should be close enough to provide a sound foundation to build upon. If, after running the engine, you want to be sure that there has been no rotation of the mark you can easily check it using the same method you used in setting it in the first place. If it produces the same location it hasn't slipped.

Next you would want to align the two cam sprockets with your new TDC. Then see how it runs. If that doesn't produce encouraging changes, I would return to the placement of the wires on the distributor. You seem confident that you know which of the connectors on the top of the distributor cap is for the #1 cylinder. How do you know that the one you are using is correct? Is the cap marked? This is not a trivial question. You have started by finding TDC on cylinder #1 by measuring the position of the piston. (You did measure it at the top of the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke, right?) So, the mark on the crankshaft pulley is right. And the setting of the cam sprockets is based on that, so they will be right.

So if the timing is off it would have to be due to some confusion in the wiring of the distributor. (By the way, is this distributor known by you to be the one that ran this engine correctly in the past? On that topic, the same question should be asked about the computer you are using.) I think it is probably important that you and the computer are in agreement on what wire out of the distributor goes to cylinder #1. (Is it possible to install the distributor in more than one way? Also you need to know that you have placed the rotor correctly on its shaft. If you can't be sure, you could experiment with all of the three possibilities and pick the one you like best. (Can't believe I'm thinking this. There is one correct position for that rotor. If you can't figure out which is correct, there is a massive failure in the design process that is beyond my comprehension.)

So my advice, at this point in your attempt to build a consistent system, starting from the bottom up, is to figure out some way that you can be assured that you and the computer are in agreement about which terminal on the cap is connected to cylinder #1 and which rotor position is correct.

Once that is done you should make sure that from that #1 cap terminal the others in a counter clockwise movement around the top of the cap are for #3, #4, and #2 in that order.

Next, and extremely important, is to make sure the computer knows that you are going to set the timing and that it should remember the results of what you are about to do. That is done by grounding the STI terminal, before you start setting the timing. (Just learned that STI stands for Self-Test Input.) If that is not done or somehow doesn't get through to the computer, it will hold on to whatever settings it had stored from when it was last running. If the computer isn't notified by grounding STI, it will not realize that the distributor is being adjusted and will probably become extremely confused.

I've never read this, but I have somehow become convinced that when you set the timing and it knows you are doing that, it gets its knowledge of the location of TDC for #1 cylinder from the fact that you have set the timing to 10 degrees before TDC. I believe that it must recalculate and remember each change as you turn the distributor and the last position taken while STI is grounded is the one that will remain in its database.

Well, lots of words, but essentially sound, especially for someone without access to a timing light. And whether or not you decided to do any of this, it will do you good to have thought about the problem in this way.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

awesome next day i have off work i will check this and update back on here. thank you

[FestYboy]

oh the pulley IS keyed, but the outer ring is not and can slip on the old rubber isolator thus changing the mechanical timing if you go by the pulley mark. need to check the crank mark.

[festivBS]

isnt the crank pulley keyed though? i didn't know i could put it on wrong and to check this problem i took out a spark plug, found tdc with a wrench on the pulley, and made a new mark. this should fix the problem and i can use that mark right? now i'm just waiting for pay day so i can get another timing light lol

[FestYboy]

ok, then i'd have to go with shadetree here, pull off your water pump pulley and lower cover and verify where the crank timing mark sits as compaired to the crank pulley timing mark. i wouldn't be surprised to see that the outer ring has shifted.

[festivBS]

yeah we took the cap off and at tdc the rotor is pointing towards plug wire number 1

[FestYboy]

did you check your rotor position to make sure it was in the correct position? i just had an EGT with that as an issue. they can be in one of 3 positions.

[festivBS]

any ideas?

[festivBS]

Alright i accidently broke my timing light but i took picturs of the crank pulley and cam gear marks.



This pictures the notch on the crank pulley that i put some paint on, and the timing marks on the right and then im not sure what the thing is on the left, but that is where the mark usually hits the light when it sounds like it's running correctly.



This shows where there cam gear marks are at when the mark (on crank pulley) is in the positon it is in the first picture.

i also checked and the plug wires are correct on the dizzy

[festivBS]

yeah that's the procedure i'm following, im going to work on it today and im gonna take some pictures. image 854284 is the correct one. tonight i will try using different plug wires for my timing light and see what happens. ill post later tonight. thank you all

[JohnGunn]

from passenger side of car to driver side the cylinders are 1-2-3-4 correct?

Correct.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[JohnGunn]

sorry it's been so long since i've been able to get on here, JohnGunn- the mark on the crank pulley is way towards the left where there is another plastic thing that sticks out (i'd share pictures with you but car is at another location right now) and as we get it closer to the right (where the timing marks are) it bogs out (like an ignition problem) i've checked for spark and our wires are hooked up as follows: please correct me if i'm wrong but from passenger side of car to driver side the cylinders are 1-2-3-4 correct? because that's how i have them hooked up to my distributer. and shadetree what do you mean by is the crank pulley wobbled? I appreciate all this help

Glad you're back. We can't do this without you.

First, I want to correct a mistake I made in my previous post. The firing order I gave, 1-4-3-2, was wrong. I must have just typed it incorrectly. The proper order is 1-3-4-2. That means, starting with cylinder 1 and going counter clockwise around your distributor, the cylinders fire in that order.

When you mentioned "timing marks" in your last post I was reminded of some Festivas which have timing marks on their engines which were left over from previous models and were not to be used. Instead, those EFI models were timed by alignment with a single pointer extending from the lower timing belt cover. You're right about pictures being helpful.

Trying to get a image of your particular engine I went to this online PDF manual. Download it and look at page 452 and following. Is that a correct reflection of what we are dealing with here, i.e., something very different from the normal EFI Festiva.

Is the procedure presented there the one you are following in setting your timing?

As an experiment, how about attaching your timing light to plug wires 1 through 4, one after the other, to see if any of those wires cause the timing to look more normal? This should do no harm to your engine. It will merely flash its light on the timing marks as each cylinder fires.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[shadetree]

The crank nose likes to wear out and let the pulley slip ! You might want to ck that ! When I started mine I had two dead cylinders due to clogged injecttors and later found the vaf has to be level ! But I did wait until it was a complete until I started it !! Good luck any more help needed feel free to pm me

[festivBS]

sorry it's been so long since i've been able to get on here, JohnGunn- the mark on the crank pulley is way towards the left where there is another plastic thing that sticks out (i'd share pictures with you but car is at another location right now) and as we get it closer to the right (where the timing marks are) it bogs out (like an ignition problem) i've checked for spark and our wires are hooked up as follows: please correct me if i'm wrong but from passenger side of car to driver side the cylinders are 1-2-3-4 correct? because that's how i have them hooked up to my distributer. and shadetree what do you mean by is the crank pulley wobbled? I appreciate all this help