Idle/Timing problem

[nitrofarm]

If you did not rotate the engine between taking these pics it looks to me like your crank is btdc and the cams are atdc...

And btw your throttle cable hates your intake pipe.

Its hard to tell by that pic. I kinda see the two hash marks on the crank pulley.... I think And for sure that cable is hating life !

[nitrofarm]

I don't know exactly what modifications festivaBS has made during his build, but on a stock EFI Festiva the pump comes on when the ignition switch is turned to the "start" position with the clutch switch closed.

There is another switch in the VAF meter that turns on the fuel pump. They both do that by activating the same fuel pump relay. That's why there are six terminals for that relay rather than the normal four. You are right when it comes to the VAF switch. It only comes on when the engine has started and air moves the vane in the VAF meter.

But when it comes to starting the engine, it is necessary that the fuel be under pressure so that the fuel can spray through the injectors in the proper pattern. That is why the pump comes on when the ignition switch is turned to "start" before the engine is actually running.

Once the engine starts, the VAF switch takes over and the ignition switch can be released from the "start" position to go back to the "on" position and the engine will continue running.

John engine must be running or cranking to create enough air to close fp switch in vaf. The fuel "system" holds pressure from previous use. If the pistons arent moving the fuel shouldnt be moving either.

[JohnGunn]

Do you have a schematic? You need one. You should NEVER be able to hear your fp run just by turning the key. Engine must be running.........

I don't know exactly what modifications festivaBS has made during his build, but on a stock EFI Festiva the pump comes on when the ignition switch is turned to the "start" position with the clutch switch closed.

There is another switch in the VAF meter that turns on the fuel pump. They both do that by activating the same fuel pump relay. That's why there are six terminals for that relay rather than the normal four. You are right when it comes to the VAF switch. It only comes on when the engine has started and air moves the vane in the VAF meter.

But when it comes to starting the engine, it is necessary that the fuel be under pressure so that the fuel can spray through the injectors in the proper pattern. That is why the pump comes on when the ignition switch is turned to "start" before the engine is actually running.

Once the engine starts, the VAF switch takes over and the ignition switch can be released from the "start" position to go back to the "on" position and the engine will continue running.

[resuwrecked]

If you did not rotate the engine between taking these pics it looks to me like your crank is btdc and the cams are atdc...

And btw your throttle cable hates your intake pipe.

[nitrofarm]

I heard the pump cuz i pulled the cover off the tank and touched the key to the on position and it ran. the only thing that makes me think it could be an electrical problem rather than the pump itself is because last time i checked when the key was in the on position my power wire at the plug showed no power when pluged in but when unplugged the wire from the "hot side" (i guess you would call it) showed power. if that could be due to a faulty fuel pump then i will most definitely get a new one.

i really appreciate all the help and advice you've given me, it seems you have been thinking about my problems as much as i have! haha

Do you have a schematic? You need one. You should NEVER be able to hear your fp run just by turning the key. Engine must be running.........

[JohnGunn]

it seems you have been thinking about my problems as much as i have! haha

I can see how you might think that. But I have to confess, I think I enjoy the process of understanding the problem as much as the satisfaction of finding the solution and fixing it. To me it is all a very rich experience.

There are four positions on the ignition switch, off, acc, on, and start. When you say "on" do you really mean "start"? I ask because, according to my 1990 Festiva electrical manual, power to the fuel pump relay and thus to the fuel pump only comes from a circuit activated when the switch is in the start position. But that is the same circuit that turns the starter which normally makes a lot of noise.

Further, you should be testing power to the pump at the connector just outside the tank when the key is in start position. When you measure the voltage of a wire that is not connected to ground, as when you unplug the connector, there is no current flow. When you apply your meter, the meter internally creates a high-resistance circuit to ground so that it can read the voltage, but that can be a very weak source of power and show full voltage. Rig up a circuit tester with a 12 volt bulb and two wires, or buy one for a couple of dollars. The brightness of the light will tell you how much power is available from that disconnected wire.

If there is not enough power to turn the light on clearly, when the pump is connected it will bring the value of that weak power source down to nothing immediately.

What I would do is forget trying to measure the ungrounded wire. Measure the voltage with the key at start. If it shows 10 to 12 volts, there is no lack of power. The pump should run and there should be a pretty strong flow of fuel coming out of the input hose that attaches to the fuel filter in the engine compartment.

But for this to work the pump has to be grounded through the inertia switch so make sure that button is pressed in.

How far you want to take this is up to you. To get a good flow of fuel at the filter requires that the filter in the tank be open and that the hose from the fuel pump to the inline filter be unclogged. I would think problems there to be unlikely, but it wouldn't take much time to blow through the hose and look at the filter in the tank. The bottom line is, if you have power to the pump and no, or very weak, flow to the filter, the pump is defective. It is for you to do whatever it takes to convince yourself that the pump is either good or bad and then go from there.

Let me know how it goes.

[festivBS]

I heard the pump cuz i pulled the cover off the tank and touched the key to the on position and it ran. the only thing that makes me think it could be an electrical problem rather than the pump itself is because last time i checked when the key was in the on position my power wire at the plug showed no power when pluged in but when unplugged the wire from the "hot side" (i guess you would call it) showed power. if that could be due to a faulty fuel pump then i will most definitely get a new one.

i really appreciate all the help and advice you've given me, it seems you have been thinking about my problems as much as i have! haha

[JohnGunn]

Can you think of any big electrical things i should check?

I'm assuming you mean in the context of your current starting problems, which seem to be traceable to a failure in the fuel supply system.

The whole purpose of the electrical components of the fuel delivery system is to turn on the fuel pump and trigger the injectors at the right time for the correct pulse length.

I'll skip the part about the injectors. It's not likely that all four of your injectors have failed at exactly the same moment. So what follows concerns the fuel pump.

You could start at the battery and trace the circuit through the "Main" fusible link, ignition switch, clutch switch, and fuel pump relay to the pump itself, but you have said you hear the pump running when you turn the switch to start. I would say that's hard to do with the starter turning over, but, to be sure your ears are not deceiving you, you could check that you have power to the green/yellow wire at the electrical connector that leads into the fuel tank, whenever the ignition switch is in the start position.

From there it's a straight path to the pump, which you could check physically by pulling the pump and testing for continuity.

From the pump forward to the injectors all is mechanical. I've talked about that in an earlier post so I needn't repeat myself.

It must seem that you're having a lot of bad luck, with the new pump appearing to have failed, but there are lessons to be learned from everything. And, once you get beyond these problems you'll have an extremely reliable car that gives you more pleasure than any amusement ride. And what I think, in the long run, is more important, what you learn in solving these complex car problems will serve you well in solving problems in an infinitely more complex system, life.

Careful observation, patient thought and analysis, simple experiments to test the results of your analysis, deliberate action, followed by more, careful observation, etc.

Good luck.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

Can you think of any big electrical things i should check?

[JohnGunn]

I was kinda thinking it was the fuel pump too but didn't want to believe it because i put a brand new one in while doing the swap. i got the "walboro" 255 off ebay. i dont really think it is a walboro though cause it isnt extremely loud like true ones that i have heard before.

I'm gonna check the fuel lines and stuff first then probably end up replacing this thing

In that case, a new pump, I would do exactly what you are doing, check every other possibility before buying a new one.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

I was kinda thinking it was the fuel pump too but didn't want to believe it because i put a brand new one in while doing the swap. i got the "walboro" 255 off ebay. i dont really think it is a walboro though cause it isnt extremely loud like true ones that i have heard before.

I'm gonna check the fuel lines and stuff first then probably end up replacing this thing

[JohnGunn]

also when i took the fuel line that comes from the pump there was gas in it and i turned the key and heard that the pump itself is working but still i get no fuel at the motor. does this mean my fuel line is clogged somehow or maybe my fuel filter? i replaced the fuel filter with a normal oem replacement filter. all i can think is that the line is clogged but why would it allow gas to get through sometimes and the motor runs but other times it wont let gas through?

It sounds to me like your fuel pump is worn out. When that happens it can act in strange ways. It could fail completely or it could die a lingering death, gradually getting weaker until its motor turns over but doesn't produce enough pressure to run the engine.

The fuel system should be under considerable pressure. Not only should gas be in the lines when you disconnect one of them, but it should come spewing out at around 30 psi. It is certainly possible that a clogged line or filter is at fault, but not likely. Check the fuel pump input filter by removing the pump and looking at it. Check the flow of fuel into the filter in the engine compartment by removing the hose going into it and turning the engine over to see if you get a substantial flow of fuel. If there is noticeably better flow before the filter than after it, replace the filter. But, honestly, you should prepare yourself to replace the pump.

From the Rock Auto catalog, Denso fuel pump #9510012 appears to fit both EFI Festivas and the 1992 Capri turbo.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

As far as the starting problems goes i did that and it started then died so it is definitely fuel delivery. and once i have time to fix the starting problem i'll try what you said to do. Thanks!

[JohnGunn]

all the things you suggested about checking rotor position and things like that i have done and yes the cap is labeled 1342 in a counter-clock wise rotation. and yes i have been grounding the sti as well as plugging off the vaccum line that you're supposed to do. The computer and distributer are original from when the motor ran before i pulled it.

I don't have time to consider and address your starting problem at the moment, but there is something you can do to confirm that the distributor wiring and rotor position are correct.

Turn the engine until the timing marks on the crankshaft pulley and cam sprockets are aligned. Then look at the position of the rotor. The rotor should be pointing about 5 degrees (1/2 of the 10 degree advance at the crankshaft) to the left of the terminal leading to cylinder #1. Knowing that will make me feel better about where we are going. In fact, it might be good to set the distributor to that position now as a best guess of its eventual destination. On second thought, better leave it where it was when it ran until you figure out the starting problem. But, if the engine doesn't start with the starting fluid (see next paragraph), you might want to set the rotor as I said and try it again.

More about starting later, but I would be tempted to try and start the car after spraying some starting fluid into the plenum through the brake booster vacuum opening (putting the hose back on afterward) to prove that your problem is fuel related. If the starting fluid brings it to life, then fuel delivery is the problem.

John Gunn
Coronado, CA

[festivBS]

also i kinda thought the same thing about the timing being off by 180 degrees but i have no idea how that could happen or how to fix it. When taking apart the motor i felt like i put everything back how it was or at least should be