Still No Spark

[Zanzer]

Things are looking up :mrgreen:

[1chrisapple]

Shogun swap would of fixed this issue

[burnt_toast]

OK more confuzzle.

Continuity check for ICM? Like, of which 3 pins? I couldn't find the ICM in the pdf manual except for it saying "SEE IGNITION SYSTEM" which I could not find in the table of contents.

Anyway, I got my happy-dappy freakin' "Logic Probe" (sounds painful) since it has an LED and is "computer safe."

So, GREEN is NEGATIVE, RED is POSITIVE and nothing means nothing. I pulled the ICM connector and checked it:

• SPOUT wire remains cold (GREEN) with key ON, OFF, or START.
• IDM wire goes hot (RED) with key ON and remains RED while cranking, but does not pulse.
• I checked an injector wire (yellow/black) too just to see and it has voltage (RED) but does not pulse when cranking.
• Now I'm wondering if I can't see the thing pulsing so I tap into the pulse wire on the CKP again. Strangely, it's reading negative (GREEN) but still, it pulses when cranking and is totally obvious when it does.

Did I check the wrong wire on the injector harness? The green/yellow goes straight to the computer so perhaps that be the one I should have checked? I know that is the ECU-controlled ground but I expected it switching would break the 12V constant I was checking. I should have checked them both but-- even with an LED test light-- I'm gun shy just poking wires after accidentally tripping whatever relay I tripped the other day.

Sun is down, time to call it quits I suppose.
[EDIT: I swapped the new ICM in the dark just to see, and there is no spark. So I'm looking at no injection pulse, no pulse going to the ICM, a new distributor, ICM, condensor, and coil, and no CEL. After I back-probe the fusible link block in the morning, the ECA is getting my full attention]
-toast

[tooldude]

Wow, just when you're getting to the good part, I had to move some stuff and I have to report to possible jury duty. So much to catch up on. I just skimmed through, but remember Zanzer sent you schematics for 1 year older, there may be some different wire colors.

[tooldude]

Toast, I don't know what all your connectors physically look like, but IF you can connect some way, why don't you bypass all this fusible link mess temporarily. Use some wire and a 15A fuse (solder to it, clip on, whatever) and jump from B+ right to the main relay or even better, after it (past the contacts which could be bad).

[burnt_toast]

I just probed the white/blue wire coming out of the fuse block with a test light and it has power, so B+ is getting across the fusible link (I checked all 3 links and got the same result). Shouldn't that rule out the link and link block?


Getting down to the end at least, and someone local said I could borrow a known good ECA which is a huge score. With so much ruled out, there isn't a lot left it could be. Fortunately, I've got me a team here on cyberspace making sure I'm doing these tests correctly.

lolpics-soon.jpg

-toast

[tooldude]

Memory failed me after no sleep. I checked back, Zanzer did send you a 1992 wiring diagram. It was the reference to the 1991 shop manual I remembered. That said, if your wiring has not been modified, then it sounds like you were not on the main relay when you said a wire was a different color. It's looking like you may get this problem fixed with substitution rather than troubleshooting. That would be a shame because it fixes the problem without the gain in understanding you could have from testing this circuit. I would like to address that in my next post.

[getnpsi]

Yuck i dont like to test circuits. I suggested in PM giving the ecm power in a "hoakey" bypass method as well, if the car starts after the hit and miss procedure then it starts. No one but the readers of 9 pages will know! LOL

It's a shame to have not nailed this one earlier as you have said you have a lot of dirtbikes and man those things with CDI and brake lights/running lights going away after you were so sure they were fine, battery fine etc are the death of me to this day. When you shop for a harness for a $400 bike and its $400 you sure as H going into bypass mode when all you want is a brake light to stay on! OR stay OFF! LOL

[tooldude]

I'm not exactly sure where you're at on this but your posts needed to be dealt with as they came up. There has been some confusion as to exactly how /where you were taking measurements. A good example is in post 58: Screw it, I'll start looking for volts DC. Key ON and I try probing the EGI fusible link itself and get
nothing. I back probe into the fuse block, taking the EGI wire and the screw holding the black wire to
the fuse block. That HAS to work... I get 0.01VDC. Wtf?!!!

I flip the meter to 2000m setting and get 009. WTF?!! I got to the 200m setting and see 8.4. "This
can't be real" I say to myself.
There was actually no problem here. The 0.010V (same as 0.01V) is 10 thousandths of one volt. The way you had your probes placed, you were measuring a voltage drop, not circuit voltage. Assuming the 2000m is actually a 2000mv setting: 1000mv = 1volt, so 2000mv is 2.000V and on that scale your measurement was 009mv (same as 0.009V - nine thousandths of a volt, one thousandth of a volt difference between the two measurements. [That is either because of the finer measuring of that scale or because of the typical tolerances of voltmeters]. That shows you cleaned the fusible link well because the rule-of-thumb voltage drop for connectors in a 12V circuit is 0.100V max. The 8.4 was an even finer resolution of 0.0084V - easy to get confused. This all shows how hard it is to try to give advice on here and that it takes a close folowing. Sorry I didn't have enough time to respond before you moved on. There is a lot of this back in the posts.

[getnpsi]

When my 'long legs' were in crooked when the plastic broke off in the slit they got hot but the car was still running. Then when i was leaving the bank...no CEL, cranks and no start. 12v but not delivering what it needs should be addressed as well that a crispy wire won't...because it's not making the connection to get that draw from running with a poor connection.

tooldude needs to made a youtube video probing his well maintained and running car, then toast should copy exactly and compare notes.

[tooldude]

Yes you did, tooldude did indeed notice that suggestion! It gets so wordy on here to give a really thorough explanation, and then to have to evaluate what was done from a less detailed comment. It's like two jobs, troubleshooting the troubleshooting, and I am not the Master of All Knowledge. Just trying to help if I can. Unfortunately, tooldude is not able make videos and only has the carbureted Festiva not the FI.

[getnpsi]

Very little experience is electronic application. all I know is amperage and voltage are obviously two different things and you can get something to light up 12 volts but it not power a car like in the case of a dead battery...sure your headlights turn on, but as soon as you try to use the starter click click click too bad. Actually that is not the case. Its NOT the dead battery is usually when you are careless and don't have the cables clamp down, that is pretty much what is happening here I still want to believe something in there hiding is not solid.

[burnt_toast]

Okay, finished the other job I was doing in the garage. Will be able to work on the Festiva this afternoon. I'll have to read back several pages for the checks of the ECA and the relay. I swear I found the main relay (bolted to the bracket that holds the radiator surge tank) but the wires were different colors than the schematic. I'll look that up again too. I do have 18ga wire, fuses, and a soldering gun so I can make a bypass if I sit down with the schematic and figure out what I'm looking at first. Will report back tonight.
-toast

[burnt_toast]

Nevermind. I didn't get to work on the Festiva today. Was at the bone yard getting a spare wheel for my van. It's like Disneyland for gearheads and I was roaming the aisles imagining rally car projects. Not a single Festiva either, and only one Aspire. I didn't roll through the Mazdas though. Anyway, I'll be back on the Festy tomorrow.
-toast

[burnt_toast]

Toast, I don't know what all your connectors physically look like, but IF you can connect some way, why don't you bypass all this fusible link mess temporarily. Use some wire and a 15A fuse (solder to it, clip on, whatever) and jump from B+ right to the main relay or even better, after it (past the contacts which could be bad).

^^^^^how?^^^^^

Just grab off the EGI wire before the fusible link block, and then to which wire after the main relay?

I back-tracked through this thread and I have missed so many tests that were suggested. No wonder I've been bouncing all over the place. Well I went after the main relay today, just testing with the logic probe. I went off of tooldude's post #44. In part:

The W/BL wire feeds B+ from the EGI fusible link (15A) to the relay contacts. This should hot at all times. When the relay is activated (key on), the Y/BK wire coming off the relay should be carrying B+ directly to the injectors. If not, the contacts are bad or the relay did not activate. In that case, check for B+ on the BK/W wire feeding the relay coil from the 10A engine fuse in the fuse panel and BK/W wire feeding the fuse from the ignition switch. There's B+ somewhere in there.

That all tested good. The wt/BLU was hot at all times. Key ON, the Y/BLK wire was hot... key OFF, it was cold. Oh, also I did have the correct relay originally. The wire colors on the relay are just different than the colors on the main harness. After back-tracking a few inches to the connector between the two, I saw my mistake. So yes, I can hear/feel the clunk of the main relay when turning the key ON and OFF.

So then I went way back to tooldude's post #24, which I abandoned because I couldn't get the connectors disconnected and did not have the schematic at the time. In part, it read:

The distributor on your car has a photo electric trigger (LED & transistor) not a hall-effect switch. That signal goes to the ECA [terminal 2E] & triggers the ignition module indirectly (how the advance curve is managed). The module is grounded by the computer [SPOUT signal-terminal G].

So I back probed the BLU/Org wire that is SPOUT terminal 1G and it showed a good ground with the logic probe (lights up green). the probe remained green at all times (key ON,OFF, and START). I found terminal 2E is a YEL/BLU wire and I couldn't find it in the harness. However, that's the same YEL/BLU from the distributor/crank position sensor. It's a ground signal, right? going off the dizzy with the logic probe it's green (negative) and when cranking I can see it pulsing. So unless the wire somehow broke, the ECA is getting signal to 2E.

That's all I got done today on the Festy. So, I'm seeing the main relay as being good, the fusible links being good, the CKP good, the ICM good (replaced with new), coil good (replaced with new). I already forgot if I ever correctly tested for injector pulse. I guess I'll need to read back yet again.

That's where my head is left at. If there's no pulse from the injectors, no pulse getting to the ICM, and no activation of the CEL, it's the ECA. Is that logical, given that we know the fusible links and main relay are good?

-toast