Still No Spark

[RhodeStiva]

check the rotor button it can be in 3 different spots spin and try again and spin and try again if not that i would try the main power relay mounted to the overflow.

[1chrisapple]

sounds like I would try a new ignition module. i mean u never know the car in jy could of got taken there bc it had a bad ignition module and someone couldn't figure it out.then u end up with a bad ignition module and lots headaches.

[burnt_toast]

If the rotor button was placed incorrectly, there would still be spark, just at the wrong time. I have no spark at all.

EDIT: Damn, I just priced a new ICM and it's $55. That's pretty steep considering how much new stuff is on this car that doesn't need to be. I'd have to find a known-good, used one.

2nd EDIT: I should do my homework before posting. Just for giggles I checked ebay and found them new for $20 with free shipping. Now THAT is a price worth paying just to get piece of mind on the ICM. Doesn't kill to have a spare anyway, when the part is that small and that inexpensive. I plan on keeping this thing until it is impossible to keep on the road.


Well all, I've had a set back. I can't get anyone over until Friday to crank the motor for me. I'm going to try and get a hold of my neighbor down the street if I can catch him. He's recently retired and I'm sure he wouldn't mind helping out if I can get hold of him. I still need to finish in the garage though and I found some broken welds on this project, which basically means today is shot for working on the Festiva. Tomorrow should be open though. I suppose that's fine because it gives me times to organize all these tests and figure out which wires toolboy is talking about specifically, and maybe find some dynamite to blow the damn connectors off the ECM. Those suckers would NOT let go yesterday.
-toast

[tooldude]

First of all, STOP yanking, prying, beating, etc. on the computer connectors, something will be broken.I believe they are locked on somehow just like the connectors all over your wiring harness and have to be released. Don't ask me how, I need to find out too. I never needed to remove them yet, but I think with the computer out where you can see everything, it might be obvious. You can test the computer terminals farther out in the harness if you have information on the wiring. Then you can go all the way up to the computer if you have to. If voltage is not making it to a point near the computer, then there's no need to look for it at the computer. Secondly, I'm not giving orders here, everything is meant to help and maybe cause someone else to think of something (like saying Oh,BTW, here's how you release those computer connectors). Third, I would suggest you don't even remove the computer connectors for now. My first "guess" (remember, help like this is based on SYMPTOMS, a 2nd rate deal, not on solid TESTING) is that ICM, ignition control module, is bad and replacing it may end your whole ordeal. Fourth, Ford's acronyms: ECA, Engine Control Assembly, is the name Ford loved for the Festiva computer back in the day. As you suspected ECA=ECU=ECM. SPOUT is a lovely Ford acronym for SPARK OUT, a controlling signal from the ECA. Fifth, wiring and terminal designations: when you have wiring information you find the wiring harness has grounds all over the car designated as G....100, 200, 300, & 400. Fortunately, there are nowhere near 400 of them. Similarly, splices are S.. and connectors are C... series. The computer terminals are two rows of connections left to right. Looking at the wiring diagram it appears that your computer has two connectors. The connections are labeled on the left side: 1A to 1Z and right side: 2A to 2Z The letters alternate from top to bottom: 1B is under 1A, 1D is under 1C, 1F is under 1E....Last, I believe drddan meant to suggest you can get the ICM tested at an auto part store, not ECM. I don't know if they have the capability for your type or not.

[Zanzer]

^^ Great advice. This guy knows what's up

[burnt_toast]

Fantastic stuff tooldude. No worries btw; I never suspected I was being ordered around by anyone. It's all a free exchange of advice based on what I'm saying is happening. When I found an ICM for $20 free shipping, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on it right away, so it's in the mail. I used the Haynes manual again and ran through the checks for the ignition system again, but I ran into confusion on the ICM test, and so I did some tests of my own. Frankly, it was so hot outside I just couldn't stay focused, even with a list of tests written down in order.

OK everyone, before I start rambling, let me list what I've done so far today:

1. Checked the #4 injector wires with a digital voltmeter and saw no jumping/movement in signal while cranking.
2. Swapped the two fusible links to see it there was spark. No spark. Checked each one for continuity across it's 2 ends. All 3 had continuity and very low resistance, like 3 ohms.
3. Disconnected ICM. Manual lists them as SPOUT, Ground, and IDM (blu/Orng, Blk/wt, Ylw/Grn. I got 12V in "ON" not cranking from Spout to ground, and from Spout to IDM (didn't mean to check that but I missed. I assume the IDM is the pulsing wire but I couldn't get it to read anything to ground while cranking. I also tried with a test light to the Neg battery lead but it is not an LED bulb. Either way, I got no response.
4. At this point the manual confused me. It said in Step 10 page 5-4 to "[d]isconnect the ignition coil harness connector." Then it want's a test light from the IDM wire to the positive battery lead. My understanding is that wire goes into the ICM, not the coil. So then Ifigure they misprinted and I put the test light from the positive battery lead to the IDM wire on the ICM harness and crap myself with fear when I hear what I believe to be the main relay "clunk" and the test light come on. Hopefully I did not just send voltage into the ECU and fry it anyway. I'm not sure what I did to make a realy click.
5. Knowing I'm not getting spark and apparently not injector signal, I look back at the fusible links. I want to test the actual block and not the removeable links, but I don't know how. I see one side has the individual hot wire and the other side is all a single metal plate hooked to a large(ish) ground wire. I clean up the ground and test from it to several grounds, including the battery negative lead. I do not find continuity. Am I lost on how fusible links work? Isn't supposed to arc to ground causing the fusible link to break connection before a component is fried?

At this point I'm feeling like I'm going all over the map. I'm not getting definitive results because I lack an analog multimeter or an LED test light. Even when I do a test, I can only assume I'm not getting signal, because maybe my $4 multimeter isn't registering. It's time to look around for something more reliable.

So, after all the blathering, I've got an ICM on the way, but I'm still not convinced. Now that I don't have injector pulse (assuming the multimeter would pick it up) and I don't have pulse at the IDM wire to the ICM (again, multimeter), AND I have no CEL with key ON... Well, what controls those 3 specific items besides the ECA? The rest of the dash works, the 12V constant is coming to the ICM.

I will have a shot at the ECA grounds and whatnot when the sun is not bearing down on me like a cruise missile. It's at least 100* and not a cloud in sight for shade. I'll work on another project in the garage until things cool off and then have a go.

Tooldude, thanks especially for the information. I guess right on the coding for the ECA wires, but I was clueless on the G100/G200/etc; that is useful information in general, not just for the current problem(s). And, even though he isn't on this forum, thanks to my buddy Robert for sitting in the sun cranking the motor for me for an hour. He was supposed to be going to the beach and having a good ol' time, but he postponed it an hour to help me out.

-toast

[burnt_toast]

Oh, and on the computer connectors, I've been under there. They just have the standard ol' "push to release" on them; I can see them. I can even push on them. I just can't push them in and pull the connector out at the same time. Well, it should be hard enough. There is no screw/bolt holding them in. There is a big wiring loom in the way and the steel bar for the bottom of the dash support... it's just a PITA. It seems the only reliable way to count wires and make sure I have the right one is to look at the face of the connector. Laying on my back and looking up in there with a flashlight is hopeless; there's not room to maneuver.
-toast

[tooldude]

Still No Spark

Oh, and on the computer connectors, I've been under there. They just have the standard ol' "push to release" on them; I can see them. I can even push on them. I just can't push them in and pull the connector out at the same time. Well, it should be hard enough. There is no screw/bolt holding them in. There is a big wiring loom in the way and the steel bar for the bottom of the dash support... it's just a PITA. It seems the only reliable way to count wires and make sure I have the right one is to look at the face of the connector. Laying on my back and looking up in there with a flashlight is hopeless; there's not room to maneuver.
-toast

Right here I have to say, to a certain extent, there is no "counting" wires (obviously there is some). There IS another reliable way to have the "right" wire. That is to have the wiring layout or schematic. You are getting far enough into your circuitry now that you need this. The Haynes manual is good for a certain level of maintenance. The actual schematic diagrams are good to have if you can operate with them. Far better to use is the EVTM (Electrical and Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual) which you can find online. These are compact, book size diagrams that lay out circuits in a way that is easy to follow. With this you will see wire colors and connection points and block diagrams of components. You might still need a little help though, depending on your knowledge level, who doesn't?

[RhodeStiva]

I got a coil icm and the other little black thing I can sell you $30 shipped.

[burnt_toast]

lol, well I'm well enough into the circuitry that I should have an analog multimeter too. I have worked with engineering drawings plenty of times, though that is still a bit different. For the Festy I only have the Haynes manual's diagram. A search online shows the same basic diagrams.

On counting wires though I must disagree. Using the face of a connector to find a specific wire is easy. In fact, that's the method they use for troubleshooting on many aircraft in the military. The manual for the turbine engines in the UH-60 Blackhawk don't even tell you what you're doing, they just say "check pin 27 here and pin 19 here" and what to do if the reading is off. They even stamp the faces of round connectors with the actual numbers, since you have to start in the center and could out in a spiral. Pain in the butt, but effective. That was my whole hope of getting the computer unplugged, so I could find the specific wire and see if it was getting signal.

The CKP wire is sending out a signal. Strangely, when my assistant cranks the digital meter goes to .30-.32 volts and stays rather steady. I can only assume that it's pulsing at too fast a rate for the meter to notice. I figured next I would try to verify the signal is getting to the connector at the ECA or thereabouts, to rule out the wire itself.

On the plus side I am narrowing things down quite a bit. I'm still unsure how to truly rule out the fusible link block, but everything else is narrowing down. I am going down to Los Angeles this weekend where basically all of my gearhead friends live, so I'm going to ask around to borrow an analog meter or LED test light. That will make these test more conclusive at least. I hate performing the test with the wrong tool and

[burnt_toast]

Thanks Rhodestiva, but I have replaced all 3, plus the distributor. I even bought a second (new) coil at one point, and have a new-in-the-box Ignition Control Module in the mail already. It appears to be a very out of the ordinary problem.
-toast

[RhodeStiva]

Did you check that main relay? Mounted to overflow.

[1chrisapple]

Not really to out of ordinary as i have same problems.but on carbed car.new dizzy and new xoil.park for just a second then dead agian. This is a very frusg ordeal jave power to everything but no go .
Burnt toast sounds like u r at the asell it point

[tooldude]

I don't know how far I can go with this as I've been up over 24 Hrs. I did give you one "order" about those computer connectors. Now I HAVE to give you another one. Please STOP poking around with that bulb test light before you really earn that handle, "Burnt_Toast". The computer safe test lights will only draw something like 21ma. Haynes specifically said in step #10 "connect an LED test light". I want to comment on your tests #1-#5 today, allowing I don't know what you know, and I don't claim to know it all. (#1) With the key on engine off OR cranking there should be voltage at the injectors. You didn't explain how you checked it. Remove all four electrical connectors because they're all connected. Then turn the key on and check each for B+ (voltage). This bypasses the problem of one or more shorted injectors, or drivers in the ECA. If you have voltage then turn off the key, connect them back, turn on the key and back probe for B+. If you now have no voltage, there is a big short. If the injectors then test OK your computer is the problem. But, if there is no B+ then you need to back up the circuit to the main relay which feeds the injectors. You could even start there first. The W/BL wire feeds B+ from the EGI fusible link (15A) to the relay contacts. This should hot at all times. When the relay is activated (key on), the Y/BK wire coming off the relay should be carrying B+ directly to the injectors. If not, the contacts are bad or the relay did not activate. In that case, check for B+ on the BK/W wire feeding the relay coil from the 10A engine fuse in the fuse panel and BK/W wire feeding the fuse from the ignition switch. There's B+ somewhere in there. (2)I really don't trust that resistance measurement, but 3 ohms, which sounds small, is not a small amount of resistance in a circuit. I (amps) =E (volts) divided by R (resistance). When you divide 12.6V by 0.5 ohms you get 25.2 "available" amps for a circuit (injectors here). Change that R to 3 ohms and you now have 4.2 "available" amps. End of part 1.

[tooldude]

I agree with what you said about counting wires, I guess I didn't express exactly what I was trying to say. I believe having the wire colors will be a great help and an enhancement to numbered positions and invaluable throughout the wiring harness where there is nothing to count. Now I see you have a signal off that CKP which is getting voltage off the same wire that feeds the injectors. I hope what I just sent has the problem in it ( I'm a slow typist). I don't have any kind of specs on that CKP sensor but I believe it only puts out a low voltage around what you registered.