Still No Spark

[burnt_toast]

Well there is a ground wire in the connector for the instrument panel that goes to the G200 ground under the dash in the left corner. This is a ground block with 4 different grounds going to it. I do not know which wire it is specifically or if it goes through the ECA at all. The wires for the ECA have a ground of 4 grounds all going to the same splice, then another ground going someplace else. Sadly, the schematic just shows the symbol for ground, but does not call out the specific ground it goes to. I have no idea if there is a "ground in" to the ECA and the 4 "ground out" wires, or if all of them are grounds for varying purposes.
-toast

[tooldude]

Something important that I've gotten out of this, I finagled a way to scan & email pictures which I couldn't do before. Before I respond to one thing something else has come up. First, I sent you a few more schematics, so you hopefully have all you need for this problem except the 7 pages of grounds. Those show the routing through splice points to the terminal at the ending ground point. Almost all of the 100's & 200's grounds interconnect through various splice points but I believe that's a limited compensation for any particular bad ground. I know you realize that battery is bad but I'm not sure you realize how bad it really is. The battery is the first thing to check with an electrical problem. I let myself get fooled there because you said the car sat 2 years. I figured your battery died (which it did) and you had to get a new/good one. There is no use checking spark or injectors without knowing voltage is sufficient. If this is not THE problem, then it's coincidental with another problem, and it's still a problem. Those battery voltages your're seeing are misleading. Battery voltage only has meaning under load: in other words, with a voltage-drop test, as in all circuit voltage testing, and connecting the battery terminals with anything is actually a circuit. A lead-acid battery that's good makes 12.6V, anything higher is overcharge or surface charge. It's bled off for a conventional battery check. Your battery is sulphated for sure, but it's going to charge to 12.6V as long as there is any good plate area left, then drop like a rock under working load. If I remember correctly, the minimum cranking voltage is about 10.5V You can't depend on that 9.5V for proper function, but you can trace for it (or any voltage) anywhere in a system if it can get through. A battery is 25% discharged for every 0.2V drop, 75% discharged at 12.0V as for capacity, yours is gone. Try jumping the car while cranking, or swap the battery. I've partially ignored that CEL thinking it might be cleared up with another problem. A quick look at the engine control schematic can be misleading. It makes the CEL appear to be receiving B+ from the ECA and connecting to ground, but the schematic is directing us to another view. Focusing on the instrument cluster schematic (sent you that) you can clearly see the CEL gets B+ directly from the meter fuse (sent that too) and is then grounded by the ECA. The other lamps were all working before, proving voltage, so the ECA was not grounding the CEL ( grounding issue again). If you ground the BL/BK wire (key on) I bet that bulb lights. NOW we know that lamp proves ECA grounding. I don't see any way the instrument cluster should interfere with anything else. You should have B+ on the BK/Y wire though going through C210. Also, it was the ECT sensor I was refering to (checking connection) not the cooling temp sensor. Too much other to respond to until that battery issue is addressed.

[burnt_toast]

Yes, I know I checked the wrong temp sensor. I mentioned that in my post. It was end of day when it occurred to me and I had already pulled battery out to put on charger, so I have to check it today.

I can jump the battery off the van.

THE KEY SWITCH!!! I also found at the end of the day the entire back plate of the key switch was loose. you know, the plate that has all the wires actually soldered to it. That was loose and wiggling. I tightened the screw up but made mental note that it needed to be checked out (as in, I need to look at the schematic and make sure the key if telling the ECA that it's supposed to be on). This reminded me of something my father had said about the car. He said sometimes when you turned the A/C on, smoke would roll out of the key switch area. He would just push in the clutch and turn the key off then on to "fix" the problem. I forgot all about that.

The reason I wasn't particularly concerned with the battery is this problem first happened 2 years ago, when the battery was certainly still good. Remember, I drove it off the trailer into the driveway, did the work 1-2 months later, and the bastard wouldn't start. I'll jump the van battery over to it but I certainly won't buying a battery until this damn thing can drive itself to the store to get one.

So, I'll be checking the ECT today and looking closely at the key switch to make sure it's not been knackered. There's no telling how many times the old man sent smoke rolling out the key switch with the A/C. He wasn't the type to use A/C too often, but you can't put the smoke back in If the ECT and key switch appear okee-dokee I'll re-do the injector pulse test with the battery jumped to my van. I smell victory comin' our way... or is that electrical smoke? Same difference!

Cheers,
-toast

[burnt_toast]

OK, only got an hour in on the car today but this is interesting.

(I did this all with the jumper cables hooked to the van. I checked across the battery posts while cranking and got 11.4VDC)

Haynes manual says the ECT sensor should read 2,000-3,000 ohms at 68*F. Obviously they never heard of the Mojave desert, cuz it's in the mid 90's, so I got 1430 ohms which seems fair if you ask me. HOWEVER, when testing the wires I got NO VOLTAGE. Technically it went from 0.02VDC to 0.05VDC (key OFF to ON) but that ain't the 5.0VDC I was supposed to get. Strike one.

Now I go to the key switch and I'm using the logic probe because f_ck this $4.99 multimeter I have. Tooldude may be the only one that can follow me since I'm using his schematic but all the lurkers need to know is WHITE is the power supply, BLK/WT is the ignition circuit BLK/RED is the "RUN" circuit.

So the ignition circuit is good: in only goes hot (red LED) in the ON and START positions and is cold (green LED) in ACC and OFF.

But the RUN wire (BK/R) is missing the boat. It is hot (red LED) in START only which is not when it's supposed to be.

I also checked the injector wires. The Y/BK is hot "ON", cold in "ODD" and doesn't pulse in "START." The G/BK is dead (no LED) at all times.

NOTE: The key switch does not have a BLK/BLU like the schematic says, it has a BLUE wire. That's the START wire though but I found it interesting to note.

-toast

[crazyrog17]

So if smoke has come out of the switch and its not working right.. Take it apart? There's a thread somewhere on how to disassemble and clean it.

[getnpsi]

Excuse me, i had a dead battery and popped the clutch and was on my way. Still had check engine light key on with dead cell. This was in 100 degree temps too. Get a fresh battery and continue, its not your battery but youll still need a new one.

[burnt_toast]

Including the original parts I replaced before this all happened, there's about $500 worth of parts sitting on that car doing jack. I don't have money for a mortgage payment nor can I pay my electric bill, so lemmie file a new battery right under "no freakin' chance." When it's running I'll drive it down to the store for a battery.

As for the smoke rollin' out of the key, it's something my dad said happened with the A/C on. I've not seen it. The car worked for me just fine. Also, part of the reason we are on page 16 is every time I see something I just start takin' it apart and getting totally side-tracked from a logical progression of troubleshooting. I ain't doin' that any more.

As soon as I can find the damn key switch in the wiring schematic and verify the colors (they don't completely match what I was working from) I'll know if I need to pull it apart, make a jumper wire for testing, etc. I'm no longer willing to just roam about the vehicle rebuilding everything I come into contact with. I've got to eventually do something that creates a result, like pay my electric bill. But yeah, I'm for sure skeptical of this switch. The RUN wire should be all the stuff like the wipers and the gauges though. I need to find it on the schematic I have and really see what color goes where, not just this "switch testing" page I'm working from. I'll make another attempt to find it now. What the heck? Can't sleep anyway.
-toast

[getnpsi]

I understand. I paid all my bills late just to buy two 12 inch tires, something i did NOT want to do since i have like 75% of an aspire swap sitting on the floor with me. But 75% is not 100%, and taking a day off to install it all would be another fistfull of cash missing out of the week to install it all even if i had everything ready to go. I know the pains. I can suggest adding a pushbutton start and fun looking jet engine ignition ON like a racecar but as you need key on and the ecu relay powering up that ecu that doesnt help anyway. We continue to go in circles on this. Before the probing did you try playing blade fuse triage? Its not raining i dont need my wipers, etc.

[tooldude]

Now we get the smoking gun but better late than never. I checked the schematic for every year Festiva and they all have a BL/R wire except 1988 which has a solid blue wire but they all connect to ACCessory position. There's too much throughout all of this to respond to every single point, it's already a book, your car should be famous by now. In short, I'm not saying buy a battery but for certain troubleshooting you need a swap/jump and you have that. I've had various experiences with batteries where pushing by hand doesn't cut it and you need a vehicle push for a longer distance. I once had an old '53 chevy P/U that no way would start but cranked weakly. I jumped across the points and coil with a motorcycle battery and it fired up like new - did that for months. I'm just saying those higher voltage readings on your battery are not what they seem. I have a bad battery right now, should be replaced, but it's at a level where it works on a Festiva because of the smaller starter. I'm one big calamity away from total disaster at the moment, sometimes we get through these things. I know there are people on this site that could get you through this better than me, at least quicker. I could help you way better if I was there to be hands on, like anyone. IMO the biggest problem is handling something this involved back and forth like this and communication over EXACTLY how you did a procedure, and thorough elimination of possibilities. You were working in the dark but now you have schematics, if you need more let me know. Don't give up, you're just at the wear down point. HeQQ, every time I look at this it seems like I have to try to bring 50 things together. I may run out of computer time for the month before this ends and I think something may be tapping into my connection. Don't throw away that voltmeter. The accuracy is not great but there are relative voltage measurements you can make and it can do things a test light can't. Again, it seems to me we need to know the cold start strategy to know if anything is keeping the ECA from grounding the injectors and CEL. I may have missed it, but I never saw where you checked the ground G101 on the RF fender (all others are listed in post #147). The ignition switch is shown on 12-1, also 23-1.

[burnt_toast]

Yes, power is not going to the CEL, Injectors, or ECT sensor at the very least. I did not check the RF fender ground. I looked for it and didn't actually see it... just the ground strap from the engine to the strut tower. I'll look again.

The BK/W wire on the key switch should be the ignition, which I would think would power the ECA, and that wire checked out. But that BK/R wire lights up the test light (red) only in START. That makes zero sense since it's the "on" that runs the instruments and wipers and all that. It makes no sense that that wire isn't hot considering the instrument panel lights up with key ON. Of course there is the other BK/R wire on there but I don't believe that's the right one since it's a different gauge wire and not even soldered in the same manner as the other 5 wires. There's actually like 7 wires on the switch total, not the 5. And someone must have been reading the wrong diagram when they built my car, because ACC wire is blue, not BL/R. No matter on that last part.

Oh and yes I have swapped around some fuses, checked continuity on fuses, checked for voltage in the fuse sockets, etc.

I'm still not really sure why the switch is failing the RUN wire test and what that means. I'm also going to chase those ECT sensor wires. I am starting to think though that the key switch is not telling the ECA to turn on, but I can't prove it since the ignition is powering up and the other items in the RUN wire (wipers, warning lights) are coming on. Something is fishy there. That will be my focus today. Actually finding the ass end of that key switch flopping around loose, combined with those 2 random wires hanging in space, combined with my dad's story of the smoke with the A/C on, at least takes me to a place where I can physically see a possible problem.
-toast

[drddan]

Suggestion:

Batteries can be some freakin, finiky things. Obviously the van battery is good, Dont just jump it to the Festy, Pull the battery and put it in the Festy.
Maybe there is a short or bad plate/cell in Festy battery, not letting the circuit be complete, not letting voltage through.
It cant hurt and is a quick check.

Alternators can be screwy also, and are an important part of the system. Not to just keep batt charged, but also part of the circuit, and can completely screw with your mind.

.... 16 pages :shock: I hope you get it resolved soon

[1chrisapple]

when I bought mine 89 carb car it wouldn't run at the guys house.i got home charged up one of my good batteries and threw in car and it ran fine so id try another battery installed in the car cant hurt

[tooldude]

I just sent you the starting system schematic, I think I missed that one. I was thinking about how you never said if you tested for codes. You posed the question and yes, you can use your test light in place of the analog voltmeter, but this early system has no diagnostic for a bad ECA. While looking at the schematic I noticed you can easily test the ICM and SPOUT signal function by connecting to the RPM test connector. If you have an RPM signal, then there has to be voltage through the coil, grounding through the ICM activated by the SPOUT signal. Of course you have to have something that can measure those pulses at that cranking speed, but I believe the test light might handle that. Would have been nice to try earlier. Just for spite try grounding that CEL.

[tooldude]

I've been hoping since way back that you didn't have an ignition switch problem because I thought it would be harder to analyze. Focusing on it, it's not that bad, but it's easier to just replace it obviously. Being loose though, there's a good chance it's just mechanical. I took an ignition switch apart years ago (not a Festiva) that needed the connectors, spring, whatever was in there, put back in place and the housing tightened. Saved me from buying an expensive switch, but may not always work. I can't just off-hand say the switch is the entire problem here, but it really fits the whole picture, just the kind of thing that is working one minute and not the next. It's on chart I sent you that the BK/W ignition wire is hot (closed circuit) in ON & START, but reason tells you that one. Anyway, the pieces are out of alignment inside the switch, which is why it had smoke. It either made a short or connected to an extra terminal pulling too much amperage, probably making a pitted, burned contact.

[Pu241]

The link below by one of our more "hands on" members might be helpful.

http://www.fordfestiva.com/forums/showthread.php?47021