B6 Stutter

[skeeters_keeper]

Well my problem is slightly different, because under load the engine seems to run fine (not stubmling on acceleration, and not loosing power exept when i retarded the timing too much.)

Right now the problems with my car are: high idle, slight "stutter" (missing) at idle, WEIRD ignition timing, and 22mpg!!!!!!!!!!!!


after a bunch more troubleshooting last night here's what i have come accross.

Conserning the idle speed issue: i have the idle adjustment screw (the one that holds the throtle cable/spring assembly out) all the way turned out, not tuching the stop at all. the idle is still high. I messed with the screw under the little rubber cap (controls the amout of air alowed to bypass the throttle plate at idle) some and it didn't seem to affect the idle at all....

I also attempted to check the ignition timing again, its showing about 20* BTDC at the high idle with the mark i made, i'm assuming the aprox correct b/c of the high idle. BUT, every now and then the timing mark "jumps" to about 30* AFTER TDC, indicating that the plug isn't sparking till way after TDC, which i'm assuming for now is the cause of the slight missfire at idle, i'll look into that more tonight.


this leads me to think that it is ignition related rather than fuel related, although i may still have a fuel problem because i doubt this ignition problom would cause me to use 9gal of gass over 200mi (since a lot of this gass was used sitting idling trying to trouble shoot the thing maybe i actually got more like 30mpg while driving, but thats still unacceptably low).


the last test i performed yesterday was another Vac test. i'm reading a steady 24, which is a little high, but its idling fast. when i rev it up the vac drops and then jumps right back up to 24...



'comon guys, like kzbill said, keep posting everything you have tried or can think of we WILL solve this problem!!!!

[funky technician]

man, were not having much luck with these motors, I keep getting a code too, I haven't checked it yet but it just comes and goes, but I did notice that my oil looks over full, and my plugs look oily and black a bit so I think I overfilled it, but it seems to be running fine, I wonder if that could give me a code? I don't have any dirvability issues with mine, just this code, my idle is a little funny, but not too bad, if I start if cold, it has a regular cold idle, if I put it in drive, it works fine, but when I put it back in park the idle is higher then it was before, and takes a little while to settle again, but once its warm it seems to idle pritty much normal. I'll letyou know what code I get tomorrow, ....oh does the computer store the code or do you have to have the light illuminated to check it because mines not always on, it just visits me every few minutes :? ?..oh and I haven't even check my electrical timeing yet, I don't have a gun

[skeeters_keeper]

^^ the computer stores the code till you reset the ECU (remove negg batt cable and let it sit for a while, manual says to hold the brake for 5+ seconds i'm assuming thats just to run whatever juice might be stored in the system out by trying to illuminate the brake bulbs). The light won't stay on all the time unless you throw a hard code and its in "limp home" mode, otherwise it will come on and off, thats what mine does.


IMPORTANT UPDATE: i got the most major of my problems fixed (as far as drivability is concerned.)

tonight i pulled the ruber cap on my b3 TB that covers the screw for the idle air control, not sure why i did it i just did. i was like "hey, that screw is sitting a lot lower than the B6 one!", so i marked how deep it was sitting and pulled the screw all the way out, noticed it was very dirty... went over to the B6, checked and the screw was not in very far at all! took it out, very dirty. cleaned it off, sprayed some carb cleaner thru the hole, put it back, installing it to the same depth as the B3 one had been and MAN is my idle waaay better!! NO sputtering at all either! not sure why this would cure the sputtering at idle but it did (at least so far). I don't have a tach so i can't really set the idle speed ecept by "feel", but its a lot better. i re-set the ECU, so that it would get the right reading for the amount of air at idle, then checked the timing once w/ the jumper wire set and once w/o it set, both read the same place about 25-30* BTDC... so thats still messed up.

took it for a drive, it doesn't rev on shifts any more! drives like a normal car now. BUT, the engine light came on again w/ a code 17 after a bit of driving. I'm hoping that this fixes the gass-hogging problem at least a bit, and it sure sounds good!!! so quiet at idle i can't even tell if its running when i'm just coasting!


so, anyone with weird idle check and clean your IAC.



now if i can just figure out the reason its throwing a code 17, which is probably the same reason yours is funky, i think we'll be peachy. i hope. we'll see after a little more driving. i guess!


also, does anyone know if the head bolts have to be re-torqued after break in? have you heard of this funky? i have yet to have a drop of anything anywhere on my engine, but i seem to have a small VC leak and perhaps a little bit of oil coming out of the head gasket... just enough to make things look a little shiny, but i can tell because i cleaned everything so well before i put it back together lol.

[kzbill]

Today I replaced the ICU, ignition control module, virtually no diff, maybe a slightly smoother Idle.
I did however try to set the TPS throttle position sensor using a dial indicator on the throttle stop instead of the feeler guages.
Interesting to see how really difficult it is that way. you can easily set the TPS to the .020 dimension, (see Haynes manual) continuity, no continuity and all that. but trying to set the .027 dimension is a real problem. I had to go up to about .060 then back to .027 to get it right. after all that I started to get the power loss, turn off the key, turn the key back on and start, thingy again. I drove it yesterday all day with no problem then today happened twice after setting it with the dial indicator.
I went back to the feeler guage method and it is real hard to set the .027 dim. but it seems alright.
Maybe the problem is asimple as being able to properly set the TPS.??

[funky technician]

ya, your sapose to re-torque your head bolts afer 1000 Km, I'm not near that yet though. are you still haveing problems with your timing? I finally got around to checking mine out, it was at 12* TDC which is to far advanced, so I retarded it to 6* TDC, someone on the forum told me thats the factory setting for the b6, I then had to re-adjust my IAC valve to smoth the warm idle, so I don't know whats up with yours showing 20*TDC, maybe you should re-check your timing belt settings, the lower end can move pritty easy without noticing when your setting it.; Also I didn't read that coade because I couldn't find the right wire, there apears to be a number of open plugs in the booster area and I can't find my hanes, but I don't think I really read the code, I know its due to the super rich mixture I'm getting, and it sounds like your getting too from what I can tell. I could smell gas in the oil so I changed it right away becaus thats hard on an engine, and inspected the plugs, they were sooted up quite a bit for so few kelometers, I also believe thats why the idle is all over the place, so why are we running rich???? I have the b6 ecu, I don't understand whats goin on :?....oh and I had it out for about 30 minutes today but didn't get a code

[skeeters_keeper]

stock timing for an 89 FI B6 is 10* BTDC, and most people set it at 12 or so for the little extra tourque. check out the 323 forums for more info on that, some people are running as much as 18* BTDC while running high-octane.

my timing mark on the crank is still showing about 60* BTDC... the timing mark i made (when lining up the crank/cam marks for TDC and then making my own mark at the "T") is about 20-30. i KNOW the crank/cam are lighned up, i have checked that 5-6 times since installing the engine.

it does sound like yours is running very rich, but mine isn't running that rich for sure! the plugs are light/dusty brown, and the oil doesn't smell of fuel. The plugs did seem slightly damp and smelled a little like fuel when i pulled them (it had just been running 10min or so before i pulled them). does't smoke and doesn't smell execevly rich. if it is runing rich its not terribly so.

my idle is like a DREAM now, way better than my B3 ever was. accelerates smoothly and very much quick but my code still keeps flashing, and my timing is wack. but it drives like a real car! :p

i'm going to keep trying to figure out why our lights are comming on, its obviously a fuel/ignition problem... we'll get it worked out!

one more thing: are you using the B3 or B6 injectors? i've got B6 ECM and injectors.

[funky technician]

10*TDC? crap, I posted a while ago and someone told me 6, I'll have to set it again then :? I'm using the b6 injectors and ecu so I don't know whats going on, my cold idle is too high too, but sound pritty good once it warms up. Its too bad this is gong on because even with the rich condition, it takes no effort to bake the front tires with out even pussing the gas down halfway :twisted:

[kzbill]

New Icm

Put the new ICM in yesterday didn't change a thing, but it is new and I have a good working spare.

[funky technician]

ok, so I checked my code, its a code 8, or 18, I didn't know if you count when you first turn the key as a long one or if you wait till it goes out the first time and then start counting, but I think you don't count the initial illumination when you first trun the key, because if you did, that would give me a code 18, and from what I can tell, there is no code 18, but there is a code 8, it says to check my air metering vane, I hope my ram intake isn't screwing it up, I'm gonna clean the plug for it really good and see, I found a resistance mesurement between the pins on line, so If i get the code again I"ll try it out and see, hopefully its just the conector and not the vane, I have it all attached to my costum intake and I would have to re-build the whole intake to replace it, even worse is the intake is causing the problem and I have to go back to stock! I hope not, I love the sound of this intake, but my plug doesn't go on as snug as it could sometimes, it already came off once, or maybe I didn't push it on all the way, but either way, the little clip is gone off it so it just gets smushed on but it would make sense that if the metering vane was glitching out, it would not be mixing the fuel right and probibly dumped a ton of gas into the motor, explaining the black plugs and the gassy oil

[funky technician]

is the b6 metering vane the same as the b3? I'm using the b3 one :?

[kzbill]

Drove about 80 mi. this time, did the power loss thingy three times. always the same thing about 45-60 in fifth. crusing along fine last time about 60 mph uphill, let off at the top of the hill, pressed throttle again and back to no power. pushed in clutch hit starter and off we go again. I don't fing get it. I am going to try cutting the transmission nuetral safety switch. ( AKA 5th gear switch, AKA shift light switch, AKA not da backuplight switch). if it is sending a signal to the computer it is a bad one. I have adjusted the TPS so many times now I don't think it is that one but I will watch that tooo.

[wrestler3025]

kzbill, just unplug it dont cut it. Is my technique working for you though? It's a bit more convenient than taking the battery cables off:-) Oh I keep on forgetting to ask....what part of cheesehead land are you from? My momma lives up by Hayward.

[kzbill]

I had to cut it cause I spliced it before, I intend to put new connectors on it if I find another problem but if that is the problem I'll cut it up in little pieces hehe. really I am checking all things to learn and to find this rediculous problem. I was thinking that the switch may put the computer into a different mode for crusing as one person said. if so maybe my larger 13" tires throw the readings off so far it just can't cope.
I wonder if anyone else with this problem is running oversize tires?

[skeeters_keeper]

t takes no effort to bake the front tires with out even pussing the gas down halfway

you must have some crappy tires! :p with an auto, its not easy to smoke 'em even withe the B6! i've accidentally spun 'em a few times tho, with less than 1/2 throttle easily, but thats w/ a 5spd. of course i've got brand new 175/70/13's on it so that makes it a bit harder than the stockers.

see your other thread for the reply to your engine code issue, I am also using the B3 VAF and I belive many other people have as well. I doubt your intake is screwing anything up, its probobly just a problem with the VAF or the VAF wiring, i heard somewhere someone was having a problem with a bad ground on their VAF and it caused a similar problem? not sure but its worth looking into.

[funky technician]

actually, my tires are pritty new, and there 12's, and this thing has no trouble spinning them, ....but ya, they are snow tires :lol: I took my fake cat back off to have re-welded at the rear flange, the it's leaking too much now and won't pass inspection like it is, so I can't run the car anymore for a little while, its too loud right off the down pipe. I hope my VAF isn't screwed up, I read a few old posts about where "xpnsyd" mentioned about how if you had your meter on its side, bumps could possibly ossilate the vane inside and give it false readings, this also crossed my mine when I was building the intake, and its funny, the very first CEL I got came at the exact time when I hit a huge bump, and then it went off, so I wonder.......its gonna take some more road testing. man, I have to say though, I don't know if it the CAI of the P@P or just the fact its a fresh motor, but the throttle response on this thing is INSTANT, I more used to my new mazda which has ETB and has a slight lag verses the cable TB, I also have no leaks anywhere, including my auto transmition (which I just changed the fluid and filter on) which always used to leak at the valve pan