I'm in BIG Trouble - HELP!

[JohnGunn]

Just out of innocence why pump seafoam into the cylinder?
I thought seafoam was a gas and oil additive. Would that be to free up sticky rings?

Dead on, mudder. I've had several indications that the previous two owners of my Aspire were less than fastidious in their attention to even the most basic rules of automobile maintenance -- specifically, attention to frequent and regular oil changes. My car is a 94 but with only 81,000 miles. And, three years ago when the second owner bought it, it had only 45,000 miles. That would make matters even worse, since in its first 15 years it was being driven only 3,000 miles a year. That means sitting long stretches where dirty oil can clump together and harden.

Of course, this analysis is based on a healthy dose of speculation. But I feel, in the absence of knowledge, it is necessary if we are to make intelligent decisions. In any case, it represents my current belief and in dealing with the car I am being guided by it.

The car doesn't have as much pep as I had expected. Much less than my previous 90 Festiva, so I thought Seafoam introduced directly into the cylinders might help free up possibly stuck rings and serve to improve that situation. After allowing the Seafoam to soak the rings for several days, I planned to add some engine oil to the cylinders before starting it to help protect the cylinder walls during the initial startup after the treatment.

Once this is over, I'll be able to comment on what effects, if any, I see resulting from the Seafoam ring soak.

[mudder]

John, if an engine has been sitting for a long time diesal fuel makes a good (cheap) penetrant.

[JohnGunn]

Take a small straw and a piece of string and fold the string in half then feed it through the straw so you have two loose ends of the string on one end of the straw and a loop of string on the other end. Then the loopof string is like a lasso kinda all you have to do is get the loop around your tubing and pull the loose ends of the string to tighten the loop and then pull it all out.

Thanks for this suggestion, links56. It seems basically sound. My major reservation about using it is that the top of the tube is in contact with the top wall of the hole and it would be impossible to get the string past that point of contact to encircle the tube. And if that were possible the string would not be guaranteed to hold the flexible tube strongly enough to pull it across the threads and out of the hole. Nevertheless, a good example of creative thinking and I congratulate you for it. Thanks again.

X2, you can get them that curve on the end, & they clamp shut. Army-Navy Surplus stores have them, a lot less than $20.

Thanks for your vote for the hemostat, navdoc101. Your handle suggest you know where of you speak.

Even though I've never held one in my hands and felt them in use, they appear to be a perfect tool for this application. Finding one locally would be my first problem. Your suggestion will help me in that.

I think success in this is important enough to justify buying one to practice on before deciding what I'll use in my first, and perhaps only, attempt at removing the tube. It boils down to choosing the best tool to use in the actual environment it is to be used in. Spaces, angles, light, and control are all significant. Will the tool reach the object and still allow light and visual lines of sight? Will its jaws open enough to be able to clamp down on the edges of the tube and tie? No picture, however clear, can convey all those relationships accurately.

You might know what sizes of hemostats are normally available at an Army-Navy Surplus store. I figure it would have to be at least 10 inches long and longer might be even better. Any comments on this?

OK, you did say it was shrink tubing correct?

How about find something that is close to the same inside diameter of the tubing, stick it into the tubing about 1/4" or so then use a pencil torch or small propane torch to heat it enough to shrink and tighten on the piece inserted.

Honestly in my 30 years of wrenching I have removed alot of stuff from cylinders that others have dropped in.

The claw grabber tool is great, I have used it to get small bolts, nuts, spark plug pieces that were dropped into the cylinder. Kinda like the "claw" vending machines, just keep at it until you get it.

Thanks, econoaddict. Your suggestion seems doable. I'm not sure my hands are steady enough to avoid moving the tube in the process of executing it. Plus, the tube is at such an angle that a straight stick close to the size of the inside diameter of the tubing would almost immediately hit the side of the tubing as I tried to thread it in.

But your statement about being able to reach into the cylinder and retrieve objects is the best news I've heard in a long, long time. That breathes new life into the possibility of a viable second phase to this project should the first phase fail. The twist tie can be picked up by a magnet, and the tubing is large enough to be easily found in the confined space within the cylinder. In fact, since there would be no question of making matters worse, the pressure would be pretty well reduce to nothing and I could fish around in there for as long as it took. The biggest problem would be having to grab it at the end so that the tube could be threaded length-wise into the hole and on out. If it comes to that I'll certainly have some questions to put to you. Thanks again, several times over.

[Christ]

So... I can't help but realize that you think you've got stuck rings... And now you've dropped something into the cylinder, or close to it...

Why haven't you just pulled the head already?

That would allow you to inspect the rings to see if they're stuck, allow you to clean out any carbon, etc... So many benefits.

[JohnGunn]

Interesting problem, John.

I can appreciate your lack of resources concerning a dedicated place to work on the car, so I won't mention how I think you're taking this way too seriously.

I think the vacuum would be the best bet, balancing the need for security against efficiency and the devil-may-care attitude that most of us (who usually have either more experience or better resources) might have.

The vac wouldn't need to be all that powerful. You just need to properly size the working tip of it to just fit into the access area of the spark plug port. Once contact is almost made, the vacuum should improve, almost sealing the area and sucking the tube and wire out.

As usual, I could be wrong.

I have a feeling you'll get it out easily, though.

Karl

Thanks for adding your opinion, Karl. In the past, I've found myself in agreement with most of your suggestions. Here the number of options and subsequent suggestions are larger than usual. So the choice is made more difficult.

I'm guessing you read my concerns about a vacuum without an open source of air to suck in would not operate as a normal vacuum, but might instead cause eddies and cross currents that would more likely move the tube laterally and not provide enough air pressure to hold the tube against the input of the vacuum hose. An open exhaust valve would, of course, change that completely. But I can't know that without testing and I fear that test itself might be all it takes to cause the tube to shake loose and fall in.

You may be absolutely right, but in my eyes there are options where the risk potentials are easier to predict and prepare for. But I appreciate your taking the time to help.

[econoaddict]

In fact, since there would be no question of making matters worse, the pressure would be pretty well reduce to nothing and I could fish around in there for as long as it took. The biggest problem would be having to grab it at the end so that the tube could be threaded length-wise into the hole and on out. If it comes to that I'll certainly have some questions to put to you. Thanks again, several times over.

Actually if it came to fishing out the shrink tubing, if you used the grabber tool anomoly showed it wouldn't matter what part of the tubing you got ahold of, it will fold and come out. the grabber does just that "grabs" and does it well.

[JohnGunn]

Cheese and crackers! Just reach in there with something an grab it already!

I'm not sure of the meaning of "Cheese and crackers!" in this context. The only thing I feel confident in saying is that it doesn't have much to do with cheese and crackers. If you think it worth your time, you can try and educate me, otherwise you can write me off as a lost cause. The choice is yours.

As for me, I would much rather work in a thoughtful, deliberate manner than "Just reach in there with something and grab it already!" That is in no way meant to suggest that my way is better than yours. But, if I have given what I choose to do the respect of my thought and careful attention, should I fail, I will at least have the comfort of honestly saying, I did what I thought was best.

The way I got into this predicament was because I mistakenly decided to put a piece of heat shrink tubing on a much too short spout tip so I could get on with it already. I think even you would agree that didn't work out too well for me.

[zoe60]

Never mind. It just seems that in an attempt to extricate yourself from what you perceive to be terrible problem, you may be just slightly over complicating the issue to the point where you just might be making the old proverbial mountain out of a molehill. I apoligize for my impatience, but something tells me that if I had made this error, I would have solved the problem by now and would be blissfully driving down the road. Good luck and may the force be with you my friend.

[Larry Hampton]

Wire down the heat shrink, then spray lithium grease with the spray tube down inside the heat shrink, it will stick to the wire on the inside, coat hanger would be a good diameter and provide more interior surface to stick to.









Or pour liquid nitrogen into the cylinder and shatter the tubing into many tiny pieces...... then vacuum out.

[JohnGunn]

John, if an engine has been sitting for a long time diesal fuel makes a good (cheap) penetrant.

Thanks, mudder. I've seen this recommended several times and is on my list of things I might use to clean out my engine. Here is a link to a pretty impressive testimonial by a guy who has successfully used it to clean out a severely abused and neglected engine. I've heard of using ATF fluid in a similar way.

In addition to the judicious use of additives, I've decided to shorten oil change intervals until the oil looks as clean at the end of 3,000 miles as it looked when it was poured fresh into the engine. I'm prepared to hold to shorter intervals until the condition of the oil tells me that the engine is clean.

[anomoly40]

When/if this works out, buy a funnel.

[WmWatt]

John: The idea of the hot wax is it hardens around whatever is in the hole and prevents it from dropping into the cylinder while you poke around with tweezers or whatever to fish it out. Again, I'd practice on the workbench before trying it on the car.

[nitrofarm]

Never mind. It just seems that in an attempt to extricate yourself from what you perceive to be terrible problem, you may be just slightly over complicating the issue to the point where you just might be making the old proverbial mountain out of a molehill. I apoligize for my impatience, but something tells me that if I had made this error, I would have solved the problem by now and would be blissfully driving down the road. Good luck and may the force be with you my friend.

x2

[JohnGunn]

So... I can't help but realize that you think you've got stuck rings... And now you've dropped something into the cylinder, or close to it...

Why haven't you just pulled the head already?

That would allow you to inspect the rings to see if they're stuck, allow you to clean out any carbon, etc... So many benefits.

I wasn't aware you could do so much for the rings by just taking off the head. Do you know something I don't?

Since you asked, I'll tell you of my bizarre attitudes about automobile maintenance.

I believe if a car is well designed and constructed it will never be in better condition than when it leaves the factory. Of course, there are the rare exceptions to that rule. I'm sure that when Zanzer removes a head for whatever reason and puts it back the result will be up to factory standards. But Zanzer is what I would call a mechanical artist and by definition an artist is someone who does anything exceeding well. They are of necessity the exception rather than the rule.

So with that attitude I do not take lightly opening up a factory assembled component and want to make sure it is absolutely necessary and that there is not some other less invasive approach to solving the problem.

My attitude about opening up an automobile as identical to my attitude about opening up the human body through surgery. I prefer it to be a last resort only to be used when every other alternative has been tried and failed.

So if you tell me you think I should take my head off to clean it out, my response is to ask if there is not a less invasive approach that we could try first. I would say, that valve cover is just as it came from the factory and so is the head. They don't leak and never have. Do you think you can you could possibly put it back together as well as it is right now?

Of course, the answer would be a resounding Yes. But I have my doubts. How many rebuilt engines have you heard of lasting as long as an original factory installed one?

These things I believe and I try to remain true to my beliefs. But there is another reason I don't just jump in and take the head of and clean things up. I have no place where I can do that kind of work. I don't think I'm a mechanical artist, but I do know that the work I do on my own cars is of high quality. And since I have done most of my own work in the past I don't know anyone I would trust to work on my car as carefully as I would.

Look, I realize this rant is really somewhat off topic and could result in a wasteful distraction from the real topic of this thread. I hope that will not be the case. The only reason I felt it appropriate was because so many of you expressed amazement that I would go to such lengths to avoid tearing into my engine. Well, now you know why. And now I hope we can get back to solving the problem at hand in the most efficient, gentle and respectful manner. I love almost all of the suggestions. It has been a truly eye-opening experience.

Actually if it came to fishing out the shrink tubing, if you used the grabber tool anomoly showed it wouldn't matter what part of the tubing you got ahold of, it will fold and come out. the grabber does just that "grabs" and does it well.

Great observation, econoaddict. You're right. That heat shrink tubing is really flimsy and the size of this tubing small enough that even when folded flat would still easily pass through the hole. One less thing to worry about.

Never mind. It just seems that in an attempt to extricate yourself from what you perceive to be terrible problem, you may be just slightly over complicating the issue to the point where you just might be making the old proverbial mountain out of a molehill. I apoligize for my impatience, but something tells me that if I had made this error, I would have solved the problem by now and would be blissfully driving down the road. Good luck and may the force be with you my friend.

Thanks for that, zoe60.

Wire down the heat shrink, then spray lithium grease with the spray tube down inside the heat shrink, it will stick to the wire on the inside, coat hanger would be a good diameter and provide more interior surface to stick to.

Or pour liquid nitrogen into the cylinder and shatter the tubing into many tiny pieces...... then vacuum out.

Thanks, Larry. Several people have mentioned approaches that rely on threading something down the inside of the tube. My response to all of those suggestions was that according to what I can see, which is much clearer than the picture, the tube is at such an angle that a wire or stick threaded into the opening of the tube would almost immediately hit the side of the tube and force it down into the head.

I don't think this shows up clearly in the picture. Sorry for that.

I don't know about the liquid nitrogen, but I'll bet we could breed a strain of bacteria that consumes heat sink tubing and unleash them on my tube. An with just a little more added effort we could make that strain of bacteria excrete as waste Seafoam thus killing two birds with one bacterium.

When/if this works out, buy a funnel.

Yep.

John: The idea of the hot wax is it hardens around whatever is in the hole and prevents it from dropping into the cylinder while you poke around with tweezers or whatever to fish it out. Again, I'd practice on the workbench before trying it on the car.

Thanks, WmWatt. I think I've got it. Melted wax flows down hill. There would have to be a way to channel the molten wax directly into the spark plug hole. There are several other suggested options which would appear without further study to be much simpler and more direct. But, be assured, your suggestion has been noted and openly considered in comparison to all others.

[anomoly40]

Look, I realize this rant is really somewhat off topic and could result in a wasteful distraction from the real topic of this thread. I hope that will not be the case. The only reason I felt it appropriate was because so many of you expressed amazement that I would go to such lengths to avoid tearing into my engine. Well, now you know why. And now I hope we can get back to solving the problem at hand in the most efficient, gentle and respectful manner. I love almost all of the suggestions. It has been a truly eye-opening experience.

I think a few people are just getting impatient that you are waiting for the "perfect solution". They unfortunately do not make a heat shrink tubing/bread tie removal tool. You are going to have to improvise. I would try a few of the techniques such as coat hanger jammed down the tubing and shrink it hair dryer method. Maybe turn on the discovery channel and watch Great Apes get ants out of the ground with sticks. The point is if you're afraid to work on your car with fear of messing it up, it might be worthwhile to find a mechanic whom you trust.