Still No Spark

[burnt_toast]

Okay I'm back from my race in Utah. Time to get back on the Festiva. I read just once through the new posts and yes: I think we've jumped around a bit too much. I have the opposite problem of you tooldude: I can type fast and I want to include as much info as possible. That makes it hard for me to type messages short enough to do the job, so I don't bury everyone in distracting details. Thanks everyone for tagging along and offering ideas, schematics, etc.

Anyway, today is dedicated to unloading everything and writing press releases and such, but tomorrow I'll be ready to start from the beginning, including cleaning battery terminals and recharging the battery (it's only down to 12.5V after all this cranking).

Hey, come to think of it, I wonder if the battery's age could play into this? I doubt it, but I have heard of a BMW motorcycle once that had infuriating intermittent problems with it's Bosch fuel injection system. It was finally determined that one of the cells of the battery had internal corrosion and would occasionally fail, causing inconsistent voltage to the computer. The battery holds 12.7-12.8V after sitting overnight on the charger so I call it "good" but not "great." It is probably 8 years old though as I don't think anyone has ever changed it. Of course this problem originated from 2yrs ago and a 6yr old battery that can hold 12.8V is good in my book, but under load (cranking) it could be a different story.

Ack, see what I mean about making posts short and concise? I suck at that. Well, tomorrow I'll have a look here and get to testing the damn thing from the beginning.
-toast

[getnpsi]

Old computers wont work under 10 volts. 12 is a non issue

[tooldude]

Maybe you're finally on to it, I never dreamed you had your grandpa's old battery. Put your voltmeter on the battery and see what you get while it's cranking.

[zoom zoom]

lol, 14 pages and 3 weeks later I'd be ripping out wiring harnesses! Watch it's probably the battery haha.. those half a dozen bolts on the driver fender are way easier than chasing a busted wire.

[burnt_toast]

Fortunately my head is shaved so I have nothing to pull out. One of my flaws is not knowing when to quit. I seem to have a knack for having the weirdest problems too, so I'm used to having nightmares like this. Happens to me all the time. I highly doubt it's the battery. The cranking speed of the starter is too good and really, the thing went almost a year without me putting it on a charger and it had 12.2V left in it. This battery is a freakin' warrior. I'll see what it drops to while cranking though just to rule it out: static voltage is much different than voltage under load.
-toast

[burnt_toast]

You can test the PIP signal right off the distributor but the SPOUT wire needs to be disconnected from the ICM to properly test

Say what now? Why do you need to disconnect the ICM to verify a CKP signal is comin' out the 'ol distributor?

My really pressing question though is this. Tooldude says:

No spark still, check for B+ at the ECA terminals

Which terminals?

Everything else is making sense so far and I've got plenty do do now cleaning grounds and checking the battery to keep me busy for the rest of the day, but if I get to that spot I don't know which ones I need to see B+ going to... there are many a connector going in there.
-toast

[burnt_toast]

Heads up:

The battery was at 12.4V with key ON and fell to 9.45-9.60 during cranking. Before anyone cheers for joy and sends me down to the Sears for a battery, the CEL does not illuminate with the key ON, so I ain't throwing another $80 at this car until I figure out why that bastard light is not coming on, why I'm not getting spark, and what's up with the injector pulse.
-toast

[william]

try jumping? swapping it with a good battery.
did you check to see that the ce lights isn't burnt out?

[burnt_toast]

Could jump it off my van I suppose... still doubt it will solve the problem. Yes, I swapped the bulb in the BRAKE warning light with the CEL and it still does not illuminate.
-toast

[tooldude]

"You can test the PIP signal right off the distributor but the SPOUT wire needs to be disconnected from the ICM to properly test"


Say what now? Why do you need to disconnect the ICM to verify a CKP signal is comin' out the 'ol distributor?
Back in post #90: *[So I back probed the BLU/Org wire that is SPOUT terminal 1G and it showed a good ground with the logic probe (lights up green). the probe remained green at all times (key ON,OFF, and START).]* The SPOUT signal is a voltage applied to the ICM to make it ground. Then when the computer calculates the timing, it removes the voltage, the ICM becomes ungrounded, and the coil field collapses generating the spark. I don't know for sure if that SPOUT is a positive or a negative signal. That gets into the internal electronics of the computer, but it obviously makes a difference in testing that signal. Therefore, the SPOUT WIRE needs to be disconnected from the ICM to test in the way you are limited to, as you don't have a scope. This kind of thing makes it harder to come up with ways to have you test in a way that is conclusive under certain conditions. [Edit] I should say too that I am not sure exactly how your test lamp is going to react under every condition. You said a couple of times that it seemed to be dimming.

[tooldude]

My really pressing question though is this. Tooldude says:
*["No spark still, check for B+ at the ECA terminals"]*

Which terminals?

Everything else is making sense so far and I've got plenty do do now cleaning grounds and checking the battery to keep me busy for the rest of the day, but if I get to that spot I don't know which ones I need to see B+ going to... there are many a connector going in there.
-toast[/QUOTE]

That would be terminals [1B] & [1C-hot only during cranking] as well as terminal [1A] coming off the fuse panel 10A Room fuse. Apparently then, you missed those suggestions, you never tested those? That may be why the CEL light is not on. Also, sometimes the socket a bulb is in does not make connection to the board, or the foil is damaged, or the connection to the instrument panel is faulty. Check for voltage where the lamp socket connects.

[burnt_toast]

I remember testing several, with [1B] being one of them, so I would guess yes. I did not know in this post what you meant though. I'm starting over and didn't know if you were still chasing grounds or hot wires.
-toast

[burnt_toast]

Holy smoke. Tooldude. On the drawings you gave me, page 150-5, Connector Faces. C210 for the gauge cluster. I was looking at that and just saw the 2 bk/yl wire labelled "Ignition 1".... Now, I expect the bk/yl wires running all over to the sensors and whatnot are not a CIRCUIT, right? I mean, leaving the instrument panel unplugged can't possibly stop the ignition circuit from working, right? I've had the dash unplugged for most of this not expecting it to be necessary.

Also, I'm not getting a b+ signal from the CEL wire that plugs into the dash. I believe it is not the bulb or circuit board. I tried it with both ECA's and got nothing.
-toast

[burnt_toast]

Before I explain anything, understand that I'm checking for spark with an inline tester like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/inline-...ker-69014.html

...grounding with a spark plug is a pain in the ass when you are by yourself.

Anyway, I've had no luck. In order:

1. I failed to test the engine temp gauge. I was messing with the sending unit for the gauge and not the unit for the EFI. I will check it tomorrow. I actually found it in the troubleshooting tree for the ignition system in the Mitchell manual so it is of more importance than I thought
2. I used jumper cables to ground the B- of the battery to the engine and cranked... no spark.
3. I cleaned engine grounds. G103 on the bell housing, G100 on the LF fender (it's a ground block with 4 wires), G102 by the thermostat housing. None looked too bad and showed continuity on the multimeter before and after from the ground mounting bolt to the valve cover, so I reckon they were/are good. I also cleaned and removed the paint from where the B- cable of the battery grounds to the body at the base of the strut tower.
4. I went under the dash to check grounds. I can't reach them to clean them but they look fine and by using the logic probe through the wire's insulation they give a GREEN reading, so I think they are good. That's G200, a block of 4 ground wires bolted to the body and G201, a single ground eyelet bolted to the dashboard support.
5. Now I check the ECA wires with the borrowed ECA hooked up. It's as expected. Using the logic probe: [1A] WT/R is always on, [1B] Y/BK is on with key ON only, and [1C] is on with key START only.
6. The CEL is still pissing me off. The guide tooldude gave me shows the connector on the dash has a BLU/BK wire that goes to the CEL. I test it and get nothing (not GREEN, not RED). I do this both in the connector and back probing through the wire's insulation.
7. The wiring diagram for the EFI also shows a BLU/BK wire coming from the ECA (terminal 1E) going to the CEL. I jab that wire at the ECA with the logic probe and also get nothing (no GREEN, no RED). This is true in all key positions.

^^^^^ Oh, one other thing I did was unplug the ICM and check for a pulsing signal coming out of the distributor Y/G wire and yes, I got one.

That's what I got done today. What the hell tells the freakin' CEL to illuminate (I know "the ECA" but why isn't it)? Why do two different ECA's not send that signal out to the CEL??? I'm wondering if I can use the logic probe like an analog multimeter and check for codes that way? I don't know if anything would happen considering the CEL isn't lit, but damn... something is F'd up with that.

All is not lost though. There is a troubleshooting tree in the Mitchell manual for the ignition system. I was really surprised to see "coolant temp sensor working?" as one of the steps in the "crank but will not start" section. I'm going to look at that tree and see just where I'm at. Maybe there's something juicy in there...

-toast

[crazyrog17]

Could the ECU give the CEL a path to ground? The bulb might get power from the cluster and ground through the ECU.

I think the BRAKE light receives a ground from the E-brake and 'master cylinder is empty' switch.